(Aether Gen) deuce22 3 - 1 aaronk474 (Entropy Mercenary)

[deuce22]

I understand your opinion, and if WMs were available in chat at that moment in time, we would have tried to hash it out right then and there. Since they weren't there, some agree with you to wait for WM ruling, whereas others agree with me to try and play it out and contend the ruling later only if outcome changes, which is what I've done a bunch of times before but this was the first time for me that the outcome changed.

Now, it's not as if I agreed to a replay without mentioning that I was going to contend the game in question, and then after the fact say I want to challenge. In that scenario, I agree with you that it is ethically wrong. But I stated that I was planning on challenging that match if it came to it. Aaron or ian could have said no, let's wait for a WM. So they agreed to the terms I stated. There is nothing that I did ethically wrong here.

But I agree with you that in order to prevent these sort of debates/drama, a rule clarifying how challenges should be handled (wait for WM, or play it out and go to WM if outcome changes) should be added.

[Calindu]

Only shot of game 4 provided is of the slot machine after a win, no in-game shot at the time of desync or later. Like I said before, I do not doubt that he beat the AI. I have my concerns that the AI played incorrectly. Did it fractal psions or spiders? Did it use the lightnings at all before fractal?

Based on the screen shots I provided, I don't think there is any way a human opponent could have beaten me. I do not see a similar level of evidence from the screenshots provided by aaron. Aaron may have additional screenshots that weren't provided, which may provide more evidence.

But the problem is that aaron's Ai misplayed too from the looks of your screenshot, by playing an unupped SoSe, not only it gave up the Paradox ability and a stronger golem, but it also made playing any SoSe after that impossible, SoSe which won aaron the game against Ai by providing the damage needed(Antlion+Gnomerider).

[vagman13]

But I agree with you that in order to prevent these sort of debates/drama, a rule clarifying how challenges should be handled (wait for WM, or play it out and go to WM if outcome changes) should be added.

Exactly,there is no such thing in the rules as a challenge the game after the match is over.Nothing in the rules say that you can warn your opponent for such a chalenge to be valid if he agrees (and if understanded correctly here,entropy agreed to a replay only).
All there is,is a) if both players agree,then it's a replay and b)if there is an argument,contact the WMs with screens.

I understand both sides ,both of them have valid points.But I always beleived that if you agree to a replay,that's it. Bah loopholes.

[iancudorinmarian]

Only shot of game 4 provided is of the slot machine after a win, no in-game shot at the time of desync or later. Like I said before, I do not doubt that he beat the AI. I have my concerns that the AI played incorrectly. Did it fractal psions or spiders? Did it use the lightnings at all before fractal?

Based on the screen shots I provided, I don't think there is any way a human opponent could have beaten me. I do not see a similar level of evidence from the screenshots provided by aaron. Aaron may have additional screenshots that weren't provided, which may provide more evidence.

But the problem is that aaron's Ai misplayed too from the looks of your screenshot, by playing an unupped SoSe, not only it gave up the Paradox ability and a stronger golem, but it also made playing any SoSe after that impossible, SoSe which won aaron the game against Ai by providing the damage needed(Antlion+Gnomerider).

The SoSe played by the AI was upped btw. deuce said it played thunderstorm, take a look at his quantum in the pictures. It only used up 2 , so that's the upped one. So that's -3 atk to the golem and mutation instead of paradox.

[Physsion]

From the screenshots of game 4 provided so far, there are possible cases for both sides - assuming no misplays, depending on draw order - where the opponent could have done nothing to prevent a loss.

The outcome of the game depends entirely on the draw order between turns 4 and 7. This makes it impossible to void the game based on the apparent AI fault shown in deuce's screenshot - not enough evidence is provided to rule out a loss against a human opponent on either side.

As of this moment, deuce is the only player to provide legal evidence of his win against the AI.

Section 3.5 of the War #10 - Rules page states that:

A screenshot of the winning turn vs. the opponent's AI must be provided in order to claim a win or replay. If both players beat the AI, and one player takes a screenshot while the other does not, then the player with the screenshot wins.

Team Entropy, if you have any further evidence, please provide it before the end of the duel phase.

In the meantime, mathman and I are working together on a solution to the issue of game rulings when no Warmaster is present at the time.


Thanks for your patience, everyone.

Physs

[iancudorinmarian]

We don't have anything else, sent you everything.

[killsdazombies]

I love starting war with a sour taste

[mrpaper]

Nothing is ideal.. but no matter the match... Finishing the game avoids many dramas but mostly it prevents from the war losing hours/days each time.  The downside is it feels bad for whoever loses a décision... But it would be the same décision, its only that people talk about it.
IF you insist on doing something, make à sticky post to remember players to take screenies to avoid potential losses and/or ask people to write to WMS instead of posting résults when there is a dispute.

[JonathanCrazyJ]

Personally i think that playing on even though you are going to dispute is fine - good even, but you should 100% wait to receive a winscreen shot from your opponent first. If deuce had asked for it then and there, and aaron hadn't had it, then it would have been 3 - 0 there and then. If he had had a win shot, then I think what deuce did was the best way - play it out but contest that particular game, knowing that it is a dispute on the potential for a non-AI win, rather than a question of evidence, which always feels lame.
Basically, take your screen-shots, and make sure your opponent has them before continuing.

[rob77dp]

Personally i think that playing on even though you are going to dispute is fine - good even, but you should 100% wait to receive a winscreen shot from your opponent first. If deuce had asked for it then and there, and aaron hadn't had it, then it would have been 3 - 0 there and then. If he had had a win shot, then I think what deuce did was the best way - play it out but contest that particular game, knowing that it is a dispute on the potential for a non-AI win, rather than a question of evidence, which always feels lame.
Basically, take your screen-shots, SAVE them permanently, and share with your opponent, make sure your opponent has them, and agree publicly between the two players playing about how to continue before continuing.

I think given the gray-ish area being exposed here it is worth adding specific things like this to it...

[Physsion]

Warmasters have made the decision to rule this game 3 - 1 .

While we don't doubt Team Entropy's claims whatsoever, there is simply not enough evidence provided to rule out AI misplay from deuce's side leading to aaron's win.

Even with absolutely perfect play from aaron's end, the evidence shows that +3 damage and Paradox ability from the golem would not necessarily have been enough to beat deuce in the live game.

The third SoW in the deck had to be drawn within a two turn window for aaron to win the game.

• if it was drawn on turn 4, aaron would have had three in hand with his SoI, giving his golem Lobotomize and no answer to the early Recluse, resulting in a huge damage advantage for deuce.
• if it was drawn on turn 7, the +4 attack per turn would have left deuce with 2HP on turn 8, which is when deuce would have reached lethal damage with Psions, even with a Paradox golem on the field.

If there was indisputable evidence in either player's screenshot that perfect play from the AI would have won the game for aaron, this match would have been voided.

However, since Entropy has not provided any screenshot of their side, and we do not have any evidence of the way deuce's AI played, we have decided to rule game 4 in Aether's favour.


On the topic of how to handle these situations in the future, mrpaper, JCJ and rob have summed up my thoughts on the matter completely. deuce treating the game-in-question as if it would be voided and continuing the rest of the match sounds perfectly reasonable to me - it makes it easier on the participants, allowing them to get the rest done, instead of making them reschedule a new time.

However, as JCJ said, this situation would have been made much easier by deuce requesting a screenshot of aaron's win at the time. If he was unable to provide it, the game would have been ruled as deuce's win, as per the screenshot rule referenced in my previous post.

mathman and I will write up an official ruling for this, in order to make these situations easier to handle in the future. Thank you to everyone for your patience and co-operation, and sorry to Entropy for the change in the match result. Newer players, please take this as a lesson to screenshot every win against the AI.

[theelkspeaks]

A number of players tend to discard screenshots after the particular game is over, even if they originally took them.  I don't think that's unreasonable, and without clear evidence that asked for the screenshot to be saved, I don't know how you can rule against for not saving a screenshot beyond the point it was expected to be needed.

hasn't said that they didn't take the screenshot, they only stated that they no longer have it because to their knowledge the match was over.