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Offline memimemi

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Re: Tolerance of atheism. Discuss. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42540.msg1022458#msg1022458
« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2012, 10:49:28 am »

Quote from: eaglegenes101
Argument from ignorance is like this:
We aren't sure of Adolf Hitler's sexual orientation.
Therefore, he was probably homosexual.

Yes, yes it is.  It's the 'God of the Gaps' argument, as well.

Quote from: BluePriest


 The least tolerant people I see are the people who claim others need to be more tolerant. You unfortunately, help support this observation.

How?  I challenge you to point out where I begged 'tolerance' from anyone.  I personally, could do with a lot less patronising 'tolerance,' and some more actual equality.  Tolerance requires a position of strength, and is conferred by the kindest despots upon the weaknesses and follies of their chattels.  Tolerance precludes respect - one doesn't 'tolerate' one's respected peers and mentors. 

So, no, I don't see how this point is even relevant, or how I personally support your little assumption.


Quote
You have the idea that you should  see people as individuals and pot a group. Then you lump everyone that doesnt see people as individuals into 1 group, and then not only that, but assert that it is best to avoid communication with these people, and even move so that you dont have to deal with them. Unfortunately tolerance of ignorance is another thing we need to have. If you can not tolerate ignorant people, you cant expect the ignorant people to become any less ignorant, and as famously stated by someone I forget, "If you arent part of the solution, then you're part of the problem". 

To some of us, being 'part of the solution' lies in not being afraid to call B.S. when we see it.  And yes, I do think it best for anyone to not take too seriously the outlooks of bigots and fools, when deciding how to conduct oneself in a rational, post-Enlightenment, liberal society.  If one's worldview came from KKK pamphlets, I'd say the same, without shame. 

Ever known a person who's in a bad relationship, say an emotionally abusive one?  I can't speak for you, but my advice would be the same to hir: find a better mate; get away from this one.

At some point, one has to draw lines in the sand, as it were, and say 'regardless of how you feel about it, you're wrong.'  Groupthink ignorance is where I draw one of mine.  Tolerance of ignorance is not only intellectually dishonest; it has deleterious real-world consequences.  There is a reason why, in our justice system (here in Canada, at least, and I'm pretty sure also in the US, and most [all?] Western societies), one hears the phrase 'ignorance of the law is no excuse.' 

You know what I do tolerate?  Puppies.  People, however, deserve more respect than that.  Even when they're dead wrong.

Quote
To relate to the topic at hand
This is the big problem with people claiming with that others need to be more tolerant of atheism.  Its easy to be in a group and say that others need to be more tolerant of it. If you are in a group its easy to see the persecution it receives and be blind to the persecution it causes in an attempt to be "equal" with other groups.

The same persecution that bald men hold up to hairstylists?  Ideally, there'd be no call for the concept of tolerance to come up in the first place.  If the barbers want to run their shop however they'd like, the bald are unlikely to care.  Unfortunately for society, and for my ability to stretch an analogy, the barbers are currently trying to dictate the conditions for the rest of the plaza - and keep the bald out altogether. 

So, yeah, I have nothing to say about anyone else's private thoughts on any matter - that's a matter of conscience.  But, when ignorance is taken to the public, political sphere, with real-world consequences, then it is not only a right, but a duty, of thinking people everywhere (whether religious or not) to call it out at all turns. 

Even if it's intolerant.
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Re: Tolerance of atheism. Discuss. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42540.msg1022492#msg1022492
« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2012, 04:35:01 pm »
Your whole post seems to be under the impression that if you know ignorant people, or are around them, then you cant help but be ignorant.

Quote
Ever known a person who's in a bad relationship, say an emotionally abusive one?  I can't speak for you, but my advice would be the same to hir: find a better mate; get away from this one.

This excerpt is a prime example of how you dont seem to understand the real situation. Being around someone is completely different from being in a relationship with someone and being stuck in it. For the record yes, I do know people like that, and they would be insulted that you would even compare the 2.  However your entire post seems to be under the impression that if you are even near them then they will infect you like they are a lesser person.

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Re: Tolerance of atheism. Discuss. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42540.msg1022510#msg1022510
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2012, 05:39:52 pm »
Quote
To relate to the topic at hand
This is the big problem with people claiming with that others need to be more tolerant of atheism.  Its easy to be in a group and say that others need to be more tolerant of it. If you are in a group its easy to see the persecution it receives and be blind to the persecution it causes in an attempt to be "equal" with other groups.

The same persecution that bald men hold up to hairstylists?  Ideally, there'd be no call for the concept of tolerance to come up in the first place.  If the barbers want to run their shop however they'd like, the bald are unlikely to care.  Unfortunately for society, and for my ability to stretch an analogy, the barbers are currently trying to dictate the conditions for the rest of the plaza - and keep the bald out altogether. 

So, yeah, I have nothing to say about anyone else's private thoughts on any matter - that's a matter of conscience.  But, when ignorance is taken to the public, political sphere, with real-world consequences, then it is not only a right, but a duty, of thinking people everywhere (whether religious or not) to call it out at all turns. 

Even if it's intolerant.
Incomplete example provided it was meant as an analogy for theist-atheist.
Some barbers are currently trying to dictate the conditions for the rest of the plaza. Some of the bald respond with indiscriminate retributive persecution. They use the bad barbers as an excuse to persecute the other barbers. This further justified the bad barber's position in their own eye. Thus the bad barbers use the bad balds as justification to persecute the other balds.
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Re: Tolerance of atheism. Discuss. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42540.msg1022910#msg1022910
« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2012, 10:27:04 pm »
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Offline memimemi

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Re: Tolerance of atheism. Discuss. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42540.msg1022942#msg1022942
« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2012, 02:28:22 am »
Your whole post seems to be under the impression that if you know ignorant people, or are around them, then you cant help but be ignorant.

Yes.  Only when using their ignorance as an excuse for your own, however - as  was done in the posts to which I was replying.
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Re: Tolerance of atheism. Discuss. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42540.msg1022967#msg1022967
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2012, 04:55:19 am »
Your whole post seems to be under the impression that if you know ignorant people, or are around them, then you cant help but be ignorant.

Yes.  Only when using their ignorance as an excuse for your own, however - as  was done in the posts to which I was replying.
Lets summarize


You said initially that Christians are not all grouped up as christians, but atheists are, and that thats not right.
I said that Christians are all grouped up as christians 99% of the time.
You said I need to get away from the people that do that because they are ignorant.
I said their ignorance wont effect me
You are stating that it has.

So where have i claimed ignorance? I havent, I've simply acknowledged other peoples. Once again though, you seem to be under the impression that if I see ignorance, then I must be ignorant, which as stated repeatedly, but I guess has yet to be realized, is not the case.
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Offline memimemi

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Re: Tolerance of atheism. Discuss. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42540.msg1023985#msg1023985
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2012, 05:40:24 pm »
Your whole post seems to be under the impression that if you know ignorant people, or are around them, then you cant help but be ignorant.

Yes.  Only when using their ignorance as an excuse for your own, however - as  was done in the posts to which I was replying.
Lets summarize


You said initially that Christians are not all grouped up as christians, but atheists are, and that thats not right.
I said that Christians are all grouped up as christians 99% of the time.
You said I need to get away from the people that do that because they are ignorant.
I said their ignorance wont effect me
You are stating that it has.

So where have i claimed ignorance? I havent, I've simply acknowledged other peoples. Once again though, you seem to be under the impression that if I see ignorance, then I must be ignorant, which as stated repeatedly, but I guess has yet to be realized, is not the case.

Perhaps I misread, but what I seemed to see was either a description of the attitudes of others used as justification for adopting the same attitude (others don't see the differences between outlooks, atheist or christian, so it's not important); a description of the attitudes of others qua description; or a description of the attitudes of others as a digressive point.

As my reply was to kimham8a's post, and used the same sort of light sarcastic tone, I can't quite figure out what tone your reply is meant to convey. 

I read it in the first way.  Was I wrong?  It seemed, to me, that you were suggesting that the coimmon practice of lumping all points of view together, on both sides of the argument, was justification for glossing over the subtler nuances of belief and non-belief.

I think I can clear up what seems to be a point of contention for you, though: I'm starting to think that you meant your post the second way - description as description.  Is that correct?  If so, though I don't understand its intent, I'd be keen to know what it is.

Anyways, enough digression.  If you want to hash this out over PM, I'm more than game.

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