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Offline EssenceTopic starter

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Why the English Bible is Wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32552.msg411256#msg411256
« on: October 17, 2011, 12:34:15 am »
This is probably one of the most brilliantly incisive talks about the problems with Biblical literalism I've ever seen. It's not even anti-religious; just a good, solid explanation of why taking the Bible literally is a really, really bad idea.

[ Invalid YouTube link ]

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Offline BluePriest

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Re: Why the Bible is Wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32552.msg411270#msg411270
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2011, 01:00:22 am »
Dont have time/patience to watch it right now, but I will be sure to take a look later.
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Offline CCCombobreaker

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Re: Why the Bible is Wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32552.msg411365#msg411365
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2011, 06:13:22 am »
Having watched that video and being somewhat informed on the subject he is talking about... I humbly request you change the subject of this thread.  He is not saying the Bible is wrong (which implies FALSE) but that the English translation is flawed.  Not once does he claim the content of the Hebrew or Greek from which it was translated is "wrong".  He is merely pointing out the monks who translated it... and then all subsequent reinterpretations based on those translations contain errors due to a misunderstanding of how the original languages operated.

This does have serious consequences for very literal interpretations of the Bible... but doesn't mean "the Bible is Wrong".
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Offline EssenceTopic starter

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Re: Why the Bible is Wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32552.msg411436#msg411436
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2011, 10:48:57 am »
Wrong =!= False.

If I give a Spanish person a Nova and they think "but it won't go anywhere", they're wrong.

The Bible, in any English form, is wrong.


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Offline BluePriest

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Re: Why the Bible is Wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32552.msg411472#msg411472
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2011, 12:31:11 pm »
Wrong =!= False.

If I give a Spanish person a Nova and they think "but it won't go anywhere", they're wrong.

The Bible, in any English form, is wrong.
But you dont say english, which I believe is the problem CCCombobreaker has with your title. The link is saying that the bible itself is not wrong, the english bible is. When you say bible as a generality you imply that the bible as a whole is wrong, not the english translation.
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Offline EssenceTopic starter

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Re: Why the Bible is Wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32552.msg411486#msg411486
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2011, 01:06:30 pm »
Hmm...

/me looks at the languages the message boards are written in.

I think you need to stop looking so hard for a reason to disagree with the title of the thread.
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Re: Why the Bible is Wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32552.msg411529#msg411529
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2011, 02:58:16 pm »
He is breaking apart the King James version. There is a reason that most christian religions ignore this translation altogether and is often seen as an awful translation. I know you(the OP) don't feel like you were that biased by posting this video with this title and intro but it comes off to me with massive bias. These issues are more known and understood to most christian institutions than to this guy. Though he has a decent list of potential problems, bible translations have taken a different path in the last 50 years entirely. I think you would be surprised to know that most high ranking Catholics believe that many of the stories in the Old Testament, while prophetic, should only be taken as parable.

The sign of any true wisdom is knowing that you could be fallible(possibility of being wrong) so its good to explore what you know and why you know it. However, the problem with coming out with a video like this and outright declaring that the bible is wrong and that in no part should it ever be taken as literally sounds like more of a justification to ignore its texts altogether. People far more intelligent than any of us contained by this forum have been debating these things for thousands of years now. Don't be so hasty to take a stance without question, a warning for anything dealing with morality in life.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Why the Bible is Wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32552.msg411569#msg411569
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2011, 05:40:04 pm »
Hmm...

/me looks at the languages the message boards are written in.

I think you need to stop looking so hard for a reason to disagree with the title of the thread.
Provocative titles lead to off topic derailing comments borne from miscommunication.

A title of: "Bible translations can be wrong" would be a less derailing title. I assume the OP would dislike derailing.

Even ancient Hebrew to modern Hebrew can have mistranslated parts. The video stress the importance of self investigation.
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Offline CCCombobreaker

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Re: Why the Bible is Wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32552.msg411811#msg411811
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2011, 05:24:21 am »
Wrong =!= False.
IMPLIES =!= SAME

I stated wrong IMPLIES false (which it most often does in matters of accuracy, which is what we are talking about)

However, in this amazing English language, they are synonyms which such similar definitions I could claim they are equivalent in this context:
Wrong - deviating from truth or fact; erroneous (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wrong #2)
False - not true or correct; erroneous  (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/false #1)

I think you need to stop looking so hard for a reason to disagree with the title of the thread.
I am not looking very hard and was quite polite with my request.  The title of this thread is unnecessarily inflammatory.  We could have quite a good discussion on Bible translations and linguistics, but the title of this thread (in the English language as we use it) carries a good deal of hostile connotation - even if its denotation is passably docile.

You can take the stance that when you say "the Bible is wrong" you are implying "the English translation of the Bible contains an unknown (possibly large) number of errors that may even effect core doctrines derived from it"... but why not then just state what you mean so it is clearer for anyone looking through the forums that sees it.  What about the Bible's mistranslation bothers you?  Are you worried that Christian fundamental Bible literalists are using these mistranslations to justify morally reprehensible actions?  Are you concerned for them that their beliefs are misplaced because of the mistranslations?  Why did you post this in the first place?  I guess these are all questions I'd like to hear answers too even if you won't change the title.

I'd also point out that the man isn't arguing against Biblical literalism.  While he points out problems with the translation he is also very clear that the Bible, mistranslated though it may be, still contains very important concepts that need not be "interpreted" or thought of as metaphors to be applied even in the modern day.  He makes a very good point about the value of absolute moral standards found in the ten commandments: they aren't guidelines or suggestions as more liberal interpretations of the Bible are open to, they are moral law.

And from a purely intellectual standpoint, that something contains 100 errors makes no case that it doesn't also contain 1000 truths.  It does mean that cross-referncing and personal research are necessary to discern what is correct and to correct that which is not.  There is nothing wrong with taking it literally unless "literally" means "as written AND without thought"  (which it does not).  What I really got from the video is that we need people with that kind of dedication and research to retranslate as much of the Bible as possible using all the linguistic breakthroughs of the past 300 years.
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Re: Why the Bible is Wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32552.msg411982#msg411982
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2011, 03:39:54 pm »
The person doing the video is entertaining. He has a bit of a dry humor where the jokes he makes he knows arent that funny, but says them anyways (which in turn humors me).
The first 5 minutes of the video, I didnt really see a point in though. Just seemed off topic as it never really referenced the bible (that i can remember) and after he got done talking about it, it wasnt really brought up again (once again that I remember). It had plenty of dry humor though, which I always enjoy.

I dont see his points all too convincing though, as it seemed to boil down to "your way is wrong, and mine isnt". Im no linguistics major, so he could be completely right, but from an outsider point of view, he didnt really give much evidence for why his way of interpreting was better than any other.
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Re: Why the Bible is Wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32552.msg412026#msg412026
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2011, 05:39:05 pm »
Quote
What about the Bible's mistranslation bothers you?
What makes you think it bothers me?  Do you think that I chose the title I did because I don't like the Bible?

I think (both of) your objections say a lot more about you than they do about me.
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Re: Why the Bible is Wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32552.msg412030#msg412030
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2011, 05:46:54 pm »
The person doing the video is entertaining. He has a bit of a dry humor where the jokes he makes he knows arent that funny, but says them anyways (which in turn humors me).
The first 5 minutes of the video, I didnt really see a point in though. Just seemed off topic as it never really referenced the bible (that i can remember) and after he got done talking about it, it wasnt really brought up again (once again that I remember). It had plenty of dry humor though, which I always enjoy.

I dont see his points all too convincing though, as it seemed to boil down to "your way is wrong, and mine isnt". Im no linguistics major, so he could be completely right, but from an outsider point of view, he didnt really give much evidence for why his way of interpreting was better than any other.
He showed how each of the flawed methods could cause false translations. The he briefly described how linguistics would attempt to translate it and why that method would not have method based false translations. (operator error is always possible)

Quote
What about the Bible's mistranslation bothers you?
What makes you think it bothers me?  Do you think that I chose the title I did because I don't like the Bible?

I think (both of) your objections say a lot more about you than they do about me.
The OP has a duty to avoid miscommunication. Your title causes people to make significant inferences that you did not imply. You have a duty to correct that.
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