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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg448241#msg448241
« Reply #96 on: January 12, 2012, 05:51:46 am »
You don't have to forsake science to choose religion.
Yes, doublethink is always possible.

Religion and science cannot really co-exist. Anyone who truly believes in the scientific method, should not believe in religion. Period. Religion is based on faith and science is based on evidence, which are the opposite sides of the spectrum. Sure anyone can say they believe in both, but they actually don't. By believing in God, they forfeit the basic principle of science: evidence. People who say they believe in both, have basically created their own version of science that does not work like science is supposed to work.
Scaredgirl is always so on point. I acknowledge that there are moderate Christians who are willing to bend their understanding of their religion to fit what science tells us about the world (eg: "creation in 6 days is a metaphor for a much longer period of time). I was once a moderate Jew in the same mold. The problem is that they still cling to theism, which is a faith-based belief. To propogate such beliefs or even to hold them undermines science -- even rationality itself. If such beliefs are permitted then any belief can be rendered unassailable on the basis of faith. If you're willing to reinterpret religion to conform to science, consider departing from religion -- and faith, its insidious enabler -- entirely.
In other words, does it really matter whether God created the universe or not?
This is an important question that should be asked of deists. If belief in a deistic god adds nothing to our understanding of how the world works or of ethics, what's the point of arguing with atheists? Even if it's true, it's completely extraneous.
This reminds me of a fictional* story about a Deist and an Atheist.
Atheist: Science and Religion are mutually exclusive you should reject Deism.
Deist: Science and Religion are not inherently mutually exclusive for reasons A, B and C with special note to the example of Deism
Atheist: If belief in a deistic god adds nothing to our understanding of how the world works or of ethics, what's the point of arguing with atheists?
Deist: They started the argument with insufficient evidence for their belief that Science and Religion are mutually exclusive.

*I am not a Deist

Lets examine the claim: Science and Religion are mutually exclusive.
For this to be true the two beliefs have to linked in all of Religions myriad forms AND the link must enforce the mutual exclusivity.
The claim would be false if
1) A Religion existed that made no claims that fell in the realm of Science (knowledge obtainable through testing falsifiable beliefs).
2) A Religion existed whose claims that did fall in the realm of Science were all accurate.

An example to the second category would require I know which current Scientific theories are accurate and know the correct version of any flawed theories. I am not Omniscient so I will not attempt that task.

Deism is a good example of the first category. Deism is a good example that makes no claims that fall in the realm of Science.
See above. Theism is a faith-based belief. The null hypothesis is to reject belief in x, x in this case being god. There is no evidence for the belief in god, deistic or otherwise. Faith-based beliefs are irrational and promote a flawed approach to knowledge that invalidates the search for evidence that is the central foundation of science. I hate to belabor the point with you (I find myself doing it a lot. I enjoy your contributions nevertheless.) but your misunderstanding is so fundamental that I had to say something. I may not respond to your response to this -- and I do expect you to respond. I hope you're not offended by this but after a certain point it just isn't worth it anymore.

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg448245#msg448245
« Reply #97 on: January 12, 2012, 05:57:58 am »
Religion and science cannot really co-exist. Anyone who truly believes in the scientific method, should not believe in religion. Period. Religion is based on faith and science is based on evidence, which are the opposite sides of the spectrum. Sure anyone can say they believe in both, but they actually don't. By believing in God, they forfeit the basic principle of science: evidence. People who say they believe in both, have basically created their own version of science that does not work like science is supposed to work.
Scaredgirl is always so on point. I acknowledge that there are moderate Christians who are willing to bend their understanding of their religion to fit what science tells us about the world (eg: "creation in 6 days is a metaphor for a much longer period of time). I was once a moderate Jew in the same mold. The problem is that they still cling to theism, which is a faith-based belief. To propogate such beliefs or even to hold them undermines science -- even rationality itself. If such beliefs are permitted then any belief can be rendered unassailable on the basis of faith. If you're willing to reinterpret religion to conform to science, consider departing from religion -- and faith, its insidious enabler -- entirely.
In other words, does it really matter whether God created the universe or not?
Lets examine the claim: Science and Religion are mutually exclusive.
For this to be true the two beliefs have to linked in all of Religions myriad forms AND the link must enforce the mutual exclusivity.
The claim would be false if
1) A Religion existed that made no claims that fell in the realm of Science (knowledge obtainable through testing falsifiable beliefs).
2) A Religion existed whose claims that did fall in the realm of Science were all accurate.

An example to the second category would require I know which current Scientific theories are accurate and know the correct version of any flawed theories. I am not Omniscient so I will not attempt that task.

Deism is a good example of the first category. Deism is a good example that makes no claims that fall in the realm of Science.
See above. Theism is a faith-based belief. The null hypothesis is to reject belief in x, x in this case being god. There is no evidence for the belief in god, deistic or otherwise. Faith-based beliefs are irrational and promote a flawed approach to knowledge that invalidates the search for evidence that is the central foundation of science. I hate to belabor the point with you (I find myself doing it a lot. I enjoy your contributions nevertheless.) but your misunderstanding is so fundamental that I had to say something. I may not respond to your response to this -- and I do expect you to respond. I hope you're not offended by this but after a certain point it just isn't worth it anymore.
Is it irrational to rely on Faith where evidence cannot exist? Do you reject the hypothesis that murder is immoral simply because you do not have enough evidence to reject the null hypothesis that it is morally permissible?
It is contradictory to hold the position of requiring evidence except where evidence cannot exist?

I hope you do respond. This is the introduction to my critique of the misuse of the null hypothesis outside of science.
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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg448267#msg448267
« Reply #98 on: January 12, 2012, 08:02:18 am »
Is it irrational to rely on Faith where evidence cannot exist? Do you reject the hypothesis that murder is immoral simply because you do not have enough evidence to reject the null hypothesis that it is morally permissible?
It is contradictory to hold the position of requiring evidence except where evidence cannot exist?

I hope you do respond. This is the introduction to my critique of the misuse of the null hypothesis outside of science.
Always we come back to morality. Ok, well the hypothesis that murder is immoral...It is indeed possible to make an argument that murder is immoral given certain axioms about what is moral. Now that I think about it, it's clear that the basic axioms of morality are subjective. Before you traditional theists seize upon that, please allow me to clarify. Some questions of morality are controversial, such as the question of whether to allow people to live in a place like Pasadena (very cheap housing but very poor air quality). These questions are like whether vanilla iced cream is better than chocolate. Other questions, such as whether murder is immoral, are like asking whether vanilla iced cream is better than feces. It's possible to fully subscribe to an ethical system and hold others accountable even while acknowledging that the system is subjective because so many ethical beliefs are based on shared instincts (conscience). In most situations it's quite clear what the right thing to do is, as clear as whether iced cream tastes better than excrement. It's just as clear that in many cases people's understanding of situations can be strongly distorted by their own self-interest or prejudices, which is what causes probably most disagreements about ethics. Apologies for the decline in clarity but I'm tired and I need to go to bed (and I'm talking about morality with OldTrees for like the millionth time).

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg450412#msg450412
« Reply #99 on: January 19, 2012, 03:52:18 am »
Additionally I should point out: Science cannot answer "Why" questions. Science is descriptive and thus it will answer any of the other Ws (Who, What, When, Where & How) but it will not give normative conclusions based on descriptive data. You will need another source to answer the "Why" questions be that Religion or another Philosophy like Humanism.
Why does a heated pot boil?
Why is the sky blue?
Why does me pressing buttons make words pop up on the screen?

If only science could answer 'Why' questions!!!!!  :))


As you where actually talking about silly philosophical [<<*key word alert*] questions like "Why are we here?", that presupposes that there IS a reason we are here.  It is a question that states we are here to cause something and not just here as the effect of something.  Why do we feel the need to have a purpose? (the SCIENCE of psychology might help you with that one...philosophy, not likely)


Is it irrational to rely on Faith where evidence cannot exist? Do you reject the hypothesis that murder is immoral simply because you do not have enough evidence to reject the null hypothesis that it is morally permissible?
It is contradictory to hold the position of requiring evidence except where evidence cannot exist?
Murder being immoral is a societal standard not fact, these are HUGELY different things.  Morality is fluid, Facts are not [they can be wrong when science derps here and there, but we fix that in time (YAY FLAT WORLDS!)].  In some cultures you murder your way to the top of the tribe, once there you are revered as a god for your cunning and ability to survive.  For them, murder is a good thing, as a way of culling the weak...like every other "uncivilized" creature on the planet.  I have murdered a deer, and it was super yummy...nobody tossed me in jail.  I know some wonderful folks that murdered a fairly large number of people between them...then they came back home, hung their uniforms up, and went back to school on the GI Bill, nobody locked them up, in fact, they are regarded as heroes.

Now, on to where your argument could actually hold.  Can one reject that aliens/a wizard god/etc exist because there is no evidence at all? Nope, one can not outright reject those and call themselves scientifically minded.  I trust that was actually the point you where making.

I accept that there are a LOT of holes in what we 'know to be true' about our silly stone spaceship, but science tries to fill those holes and actively peruses answers.  Religion simply does not.  To have faith, to accept something without evidence of any kind as truth, strikes me as unproductive and lazy.  Having faith, and the peace it brings you [ignorance IS bliss, and i mean that in the least offensive way possible], is what some people still need to get through the day.  It makes them feel better, it helps them not worry as much about the rigors of a fairly grueling and harsh world...same goes for people that smoke WAY too much pot...

I am 100% on the science side of this argument every time, but I in NO way discount the possibility of something more out there that we simply have not discovered yet...It could very well have been handed to us in a handy book...but, prove that is is all you say it is...until then, it is a popular book full of quaint stories that has been interpreted and translated by the less-than-infallible hand of man.

On the proof/disprove god thing...You can not disprove the existence of something.  I have the ability to set things on fire with my mind...now, without requiring proof that this statement is in fact true, disprove it.  There is a wizard named Sam that lives in a yurt on an elephant's back somewhere in the depths of space, that created our galaxy from bits of laughter and a dash of garlic.  That sounds exactly as absurd as an all-powerful entity creating life from nothing, then refusing to prove he/she/it exists...but, prove that Sam is not real.  The burden of proof lies with the religious folks at the moment...You have your hypothesis "God exists [etc]", on to step two.

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg450428#msg450428
« Reply #100 on: January 19, 2012, 05:08:32 am »
You might want to read my response carefully. You misunderstood or inaccurately assumed a few times.

Additionally I should point out: Science cannot answer "Why" questions. Science is descriptive and thus it will answer any of the other Ws (Who, What, When, Where & How) but it will not give normative conclusions based on descriptive data. You will need another source to answer the "Why" questions be that Religion or another Philosophy like Humanism.
Why does a heated pot boil?
Why is the sky blue?
Why does me pressing buttons make words pop up on the screen?

If only science could answer 'Why' questions!!!!!  :))

As you where actually talking about silly philosophical [<<*key word alert*] questions like "Why are we here?", that presupposes that there IS a reason we are here.  It is a question that states we are here to cause something and not just here as the effect of something.  Why do we feel the need to have a purpose? (the SCIENCE of psychology might help you with that one...philosophy, not likely)
Actually, Scientists (including myself) cannot tell you why heated things boil. They can tell you how they boil in this reality where they do boil. However they cannot tell you why heated things do not freeze instead. They cannot tell you why this reality exists rather than the reality where boiling something will freeze it.

So scientists can tell you that, in this universe, the path of light passing from space into the earth's atmosphere results in our eyes perceiving it as blue. We could have evolved to see the sky as orange. Scientists cannot tell you why we do not perceive the sky as orange but they can tell us how we see it as blue.

An electrical engineer could tell you how the buttons you pressed resulted in the letters on the screen. A psychologist could tell you how people decided to construct the machine that way. However neither can answer why this future instead of an equally plausible future where computers don't exist.

Now if you ask a philosopher they will be varied in their answers including the possible answer of "This reality was random and has no deeper meaning."

However I suspect part of your objection is due to a semantic misunderstanding. Please look up the term Normative Claim relative to the word Descriptive Claim. The word "Why" usually fits the pattern however English is a twisted language.

Sidenote: I was not talking about silly naive questions like "Why are we here?". Philosophy is quite sophisticated with its questions. Try: "Why be moral?" aka Why live in accord with moral truth? Moral Truth is defined below. This question is closer to questioning the assumption than it is assuming the assumption.
Is it irrational to rely on Faith where evidence cannot exist? Do you reject the hypothesis that murder is immoral simply because you do not have enough evidence to reject the null hypothesis that it is morally permissible?
It is contradictory to hold the position of requiring evidence except where evidence cannot exist?
Murder being immoral is a societal standard not fact, these are HUGELY different things.  Morality is fluid, Facts are not [they can be wrong when science derps here and there, but we fix that in time (YAY FLAT WORLDS!)].  In some cultures you murder your way to the top of the tribe, once there you are revered as a god for your cunning and ability to survive.  For them, murder is a good thing, as a way of culling the weak...like every other "uncivilized" creature on the planet.  I have murdered a deer, and it was super yummy...nobody tossed me in jail.  I know some wonderful folks that murdered a fairly large number of people between them...then they came back home, hung their uniforms up, and went back to school on the GI Bill, nobody locked them up, in fact, they are regarded as heroes.

Now, on to where your argument could actually hold.  Can one reject that aliens/a wizard god/etc exist because there is no evidence at all? Nope, one can not outright reject those and call themselves scientifically minded.  I trust that was actually the point you where making.

I accept that there are a LOT of holes in what we 'know to be true' about our silly stone spaceship, but science tries to fill those holes and actively peruses answers.  Religion simply does not.  To have faith, to accept something without evidence of any kind as truth, strikes me as unproductive and lazy.  Having faith, and the peace it brings you [ignorance IS bliss, and i mean that in the least offensive way possible], is what some people still need to get through the day.  It makes them feel better, it helps them not worry as much about the rigors of a fairly grueling and harsh world...same goes for people that smoke WAY too much pot...

I am 100% on the science side of this argument every time, but I in NO way discount the possibility of something more out there that we simply have not discovered yet...It could very well have been handed to us in a handy book...but, prove that is is all you say it is...until then, it is a popular book full of quaint stories that has been interpreted and translated by the less-than-infallible hand of man.

On the proof/disprove god thing...You can not disprove the existence of something.  I have the ability to set things on fire with my mind...now, without requiring proof that this statement is in fact true, disprove it.  There is a wizard named Sam that lives in a yurt on an elephant's back somewhere in the depths of space, that created our galaxy from bits of laughter and a dash of garlic.  That sounds exactly as absurd as an all-powerful entity creating life from nothing, then refusing to prove he/she/it exists...but, prove that Sam is not real.  The burden of proof lies with the religious folks at the moment...You have your hypothesis "God exists [etc]", on to step two.
1) Important vocabulary:
Moral Judgement: Assertions about Moral Truth. [Fluid]
Moral Truth: Truth by which statements called Moral Judgement are either True or False. [Static]

Now with that vocabulary lets examine my argument:
1) Evidence that would let one know the Moral Truth relative to a Moral Judgement is impossible in favor or in opposition to the Moral Judgement.
2) There is a Moral Judgement that "Murder is Immoral".
3) There is no evidence for or against this Normative Claim.
4) Would you reject Normative Claims that lack evidence in the same manner you would reject Descriptive Claims that lack evidence? (aka would you assume Murder was not Immoral due to lack of evidence that it was Immoral?)
5) Is it contradictory to reject Descriptive Claims that lack evidence but not necessarily reject Normative Claims that lack evidence?

What am I NOT claiming:
Descriptive claims do not need evidence.
Scientists should believe any and all claims that cannot have evidence.
Scientists should believe any and all claims about things that could be tested in the future.
Lack of proof is proof of lack.

What I am claiming:
Rational belief in provable claims requires evidence. Lack of evidence for a provable claim is evidence that the claim might be false. This evidence supports the Null hypothesis rendering the Null superior to unproven provable claims.
It is not irrational to believe or disbelieve unprovable claims. The lack of evidence  for an unprovable claim is not evidence that the claim is false. Therefore there is no evidence that supports the Null hypothesis either. Since both have no evidence then neither is superior.
It is not irrational to require evidence for provable claims but not require evidence for some unprovable claims.
Some forms of Religion are not irrational.
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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg452891#msg452891
« Reply #101 on: January 26, 2012, 05:15:44 am »
Just a fun little jab, not meant to be taken seriously... You can disprove something. Its just that some things are easier to disprove than others. For example... if I said that I have 3 arms, then it would be quite easy to disprove.
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Offline Freefall357

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg453085#msg453085
« Reply #102 on: January 26, 2012, 08:17:19 pm »
Just a fun little jab, not meant to be taken seriously... You can disprove something. Its just that some things are easier to disprove than others. For example... if I said that I have 3 arms, then it would be quite easy to disprove.
It is not really a matter of 'disproving', it is a matter of proving.
You can't PROVE [beyond a reasonable doubt] the existence of God.  While that in no way denies that he exists, it just makes it harder for folks like me to be a follower.
You can go on rants about morals proving God's existence, but you then have to prove that morals are not just another human construct and the debate falls in a hole again.  I doubt 'feral' humans would have ANY qualms with murder, rape, or anything else a civilized person would have 'moral objections' to.
It also falls into semantics and redefining words, and that is just terrible form when it comes to debate.  That just turns into more arguments that are not even on topic.
To be honest, I never understood these debates.  I DO find them entertaining enough, and not from a snarky position, but I have never seen one change someones mind [not to say they haven't].  They tend to just make enemies of people that have no actual reason to think negatively of others.
AND, I am ranting to myself again :-[

anywho, carry on!  ;D

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg453123#msg453123
« Reply #103 on: January 26, 2012, 10:15:55 pm »
Just a fun little jab, not meant to be taken seriously... You can disprove something. Its just that some things are easier to disprove than others. For example... if I said that I have 3 arms, then it would be quite easy to disprove.
It is not really a matter of 'disproving', it is a matter of proving.
You can't PROVE [beyond a reasonable doubt] the existence of God.  While that in no way denies that he exists, it just makes it harder for folks like me to be a follower.
To be honest, I never understood these debates.  I DO find them entertaining enough, and not from a snarky position, but I have never seen one change someones mind [not to say they haven't].  They tend to just make enemies of people that have no actual reason to think negatively of others.
AND, I am ranting to myself again :-[

anywho, carry on!  ;D
The unproveable nature of the concept of a deity prevents there from being a rational reason to reject either position. These debates cannot convert someone from their belief/disbelief. That is why I take the position of deconstructing any such flawed arguments. Here I was trying to demonstrate that theism, like atheism, is compatible with scientific thought. I was defending this point because atheists can be as biased and stereotyping of theists as theists can be of atheists. Both sides need reminders of their own biases every now and again.
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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg453726#msg453726
« Reply #104 on: January 28, 2012, 05:33:24 am »
Just a fun little jab, not meant to be taken seriously... You can disprove something. Its just that some things are easier to disprove than others. For example... if I said that I have 3 arms, then it would be quite easy to disprove.
It is not really a matter of 'disproving', it is a matter of proving.
You can't PROVE [beyond a reasonable doubt] the existence of God.  While that in no way denies that he exists, it just makes it harder for folks like me to be a follower.
To be honest, I never understood these debates.  I DO find them entertaining enough, and not from a snarky position, but I have never seen one change someones mind [not to say they haven't].  They tend to just make enemies of people that have no actual reason to think negatively of others.
AND, I am ranting to myself again :-[

anywho, carry on!  ;D
The unproveable nature of the concept of a deity prevents there from being a rational reason to reject either position.
So...there's a difference between rejecting a position and refusing to believe in it. While I can't reject the proposition that the FBI has bugs all over this room, I have no evidence supporting it so it would be irrational to believe it. The same is true of the claim that God created everything (or even that God exists). Unless you can somehow separate belief in God's omniscience from belief in the FBI's omniscience in terms of reliability, both claims will continue to be equally absurd.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg453748#msg453748
« Reply #105 on: January 28, 2012, 06:46:09 am »
Just a fun little jab, not meant to be taken seriously... You can disprove something. Its just that some things are easier to disprove than others. For example... if I said that I have 3 arms, then it would be quite easy to disprove.
It is not really a matter of 'disproving', it is a matter of proving.
You can't PROVE [beyond a reasonable doubt] the existence of God.  While that in no way denies that he exists, it just makes it harder for folks like me to be a follower.
To be honest, I never understood these debates.  I DO find them entertaining enough, and not from a snarky position, but I have never seen one change someones mind [not to say they haven't].  They tend to just make enemies of people that have no actual reason to think negatively of others.
AND, I am ranting to myself again :-[

anywho, carry on!  ;D
The unproveable nature of the concept of a deity prevents there from being a rational reason to reject either position.
So...there's a difference between rejecting a position and refusing to believe in it. While I can't reject the proposition that the FBI has bugs all over this room, I have no evidence supporting it so it would be irrational to believe it. The same is true of the claim that God created everything (or even that God exists). Unless you can somehow separate belief in God's omniscience from belief in the FBI's omniscience in terms of reliability, both claims will continue to be equally absurd.
1) When there is no rational reason to reject either position, there is no rational reason to reject the position of disbelief. I am arguing against conversion not for directional conversion. There is insufficient reason for directional conversion in either direction.
Aka: Neither Belief nor Disbelief is irrational in cases where evidence cannot exist.
2) The FBI example is an incorrect analogy. There necessarily exists potential evidence for the presence of the FBI bugs if they existed even though you do not have it. In such cases where the existence of evidence would be caused by the claim being true, it is rational to reject belief until evidence appears. In the case of deities, such evidence does not necessarily exists and thus there is no rational reason to abandon either disbelief or belief.
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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg454082#msg454082
« Reply #106 on: January 28, 2012, 09:30:40 pm »
1) When there is no rational reason to reject either position, there is no rational reason to reject the position of disbelief
...
Aka: Neither Belief nor Disbelief is irrational in cases where evidence cannot exist.
Not true. Replace my FBI example with aliens who are planning to anally rape you the next time you sit down. Now is it just as rational to believe that you're going to be raped when you sit as it is to believe you won't? Each time you sit down (or do anything, really) you are acting against the above statement.

Quote
2) The FBI example is an incorrect analogy. There necessarily exists potential evidence for the presence of the FBI bugs if they existed even though you do not have it. In such cases where the existence of evidence would be caused by the claim being true, it is rational to reject belief until evidence appears. In the case of deities, such evidence does not necessarily exists and thus there is no rational reason to abandon either disbelief or belief.
You've got it backwards. The fact that the FBI example can potentially be disproven, but it hasn't been, gives it more credence than belief in God. The fact that God's existence hasn't been disproven is no reason to believe in it, because it can't be disproven.

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg454096#msg454096
« Reply #107 on: January 28, 2012, 10:06:04 pm »
1) When there is no rational reason to reject either position, there is no rational reason to reject the position of disbelief
...
Aka: Neither Belief nor Disbelief is irrational in cases where evidence cannot exist.
Not true. Replace my FBI example with aliens who are planning to anally rape you the next time you sit down. Now is it just as rational to believe that you're going to be raped when you sit as it is to believe you won't? Each time you sit down (or do anything, really) you are acting against the above statement.
Incorrect in 2 respects
1) The difference in there being "reason to reject both" and "no reason to reject either" is that the first prohibits both options and the second permits either option.
2) Evidence would exist in the Alien case unlike in the Deity case. If the claim were true then sitting down would result in evidence in favor of the claim. If there is this causal relationship between veracity and evidence then lack of the evidence says something about the veracity of the claim. (this is discussed more below)

Quote
2) The FBI example is an incorrect analogy. There necessarily exists potential evidence for the presence of the FBI bugs if they existed even though you do not have it. In such cases where the existence of evidence would be caused by the claim being true, it is rational to reject belief until evidence appears. In the case of deities, such evidence does not necessarily exists and thus there is no rational reason to abandon either disbelief or belief.
You've got it backwards. The fact that the FBI example can potentially be disproven, but it hasn't been, gives it more credence than belief in God. The fact that God's existence hasn't been disproven is no reason to believe in it, because it can't be disproven.
I thought you were using the FBI as an example that could not be disproven if false but could be proven (find a bug) if true.
Evidence exists in favorEvidence exists against
Is TrueYesNo
Is FalseNoNo
In this case the lack of proof is evidence of lack.
But lack of disproof is not evidence of anything.


However you are implying that you meant
Evidence exists in favorEvidence exists against
Is TrueNoNo
Is FalseNoYes
In this case the lack of disprove is evidence.
But lack of proof is not evidence of anything.

However I am not referring to either case and either case would be a faulty analogy
Evidence exists in favorEvidence exists against
Is TrueNoNo
Is FalseNoNo
In this case lack of proof is not evidence of anything nor is lack of disproof evidence of anything.
When veracity of a claim is unrelated to the existence of evidence, belief/disbelief ought to also be unrelated to evidence.

Lets examine the alternative case. What if there necessarily existed both proof and disproof of a claim regardless of the veracity of the claim?
Evidence exists in favorEvidence exists against
Is TrueYesYes
Is FalseYesYes
In this case proof is not evidence of anything nor is disproof evidence of anything.
When veracity of a claim is unrelated to the existence of evidence, belief/disbelief ought to also be unrelated to evidence.
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anything
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