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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg409993#msg409993
« Reply #72 on: October 15, 2011, 12:40:37 am »
Theoretically. Name a religion that does not conflict, please?
Deism would be type of Religion that inherently would not conflict with Science.
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Offline BluePriest

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg410012#msg410012
« Reply #73 on: October 15, 2011, 01:12:55 am »
Theoretically. Name a religion that does not conflict, please?
IF there is a "superior being", which I believe we all agree can not be proven one way or the other, then it stands to reason that that being can interact with our world, and influence it if he so chooses. The virgin birth, would be one example of that. This does not relate to religious people not believing in science, as some would like to point out. It just means that religious people think there is more to life than science (which does not mean they believe science any less)

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There's everything from walking on water to virgin birth. Evolution is a good example of something that has tens of thousands of pieces of scientific evidence, yet it's completely different from how Christianity tells us of how humans came to be.
Evolution is a theory not a fact.
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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg410149#msg410149
« Reply #74 on: October 15, 2011, 05:56:52 am »
Part of the reason why I don't think it's worth the effort is because that I predict that this discussion will eventually devolve into a matter of reality versus perception. It can be argued that nothing in this universe is real, since we can never know for that our perceptions match the actual reality. Therefore, none of science is really correct by its own standards. Therefore, science automatically loses and religion automatically wins. If we go into that issue, it's really difficult for me to argue for anything, since my most basic premises and axioms are taken down and torn apart. I don't think trying to back up my opinions will accomplish anything useful.
Why would it go anywhere near there?
When people find it hard to take on my arguments, they attack my premises. And my premises aren't really possible to defend. The same thing does not work on them; religious premises do not have to be defended. Therefore, it's not really possible for me to win any arguments against them.

Why do you think religion must make claims about falsifiable knowledge?
Hmm... I don't quite have a clear answer. I suppose I believe that all knowledge is falsifiable. All non-falsifiable knowledge is made of subjective opinions, which is not really knowledge. Religion claims that non-falsifiable knowledge exists. There are probably a lot of holes in my reasoning, but don't expect me to try to fix any of them. As I said above, it's not really worth the effort when it won't accomplish anything in the end.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg410154#msg410154
« Reply #75 on: October 15, 2011, 06:14:23 am »
Why do you think religion must make claims about falsifiable knowledge?
Hmm... I don't quite have a clear answer. I suppose I believe that all knowledge is falsifiable. All non-falsifiable knowledge is made of subjective opinions, which is not really knowledge. Religion claims that non-falsifiable knowledge exists. There are probably a lot of holes in my reasoning, but don't expect me to try to fix any of them. As I said above, it's not really worth the effort when it won't accomplish anything in the end.
Oh, sorry about the language slip. I was using knowledge to denote truths (not necessarily known truths). I will clarify my argument below. (feel free to critique the premises and/or form of the argument)

1) There are truths about reality that cannot be known via testing of falsifiable explanations. (You and I can further assume that these truths can't be known period but that is neither here nor there)
2) Science deals only with investigating truths that can be known via testing of falsifiable explanations. (Definition of Science)
3) Religion either does or does not necessarily need to include beliefs about truths that can be known via testing of falsifiable explanations. (Law of the Excluded Middle)
4) If Religion does not necessarily need to include beliefs about truths that can be known via testing of falsifiable explanations then it does not necessarily need to conflict with Science. (Self Evident?)
5) Religion does not necessarily need to include beliefs about truths that can be known via testing of falsifiable explanations. (Deism Counterexample)
6) Religion does not necessarily need to conflict with Science. (4+5)

Note: I am not implying any further conclusions beyond 6.
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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg410282#msg410282
« Reply #76 on: October 15, 2011, 12:41:57 pm »
Scared, are you then saying everything in the bible must be taken literally for us to believe in religion? The Bible is full of metaphors. What is a day to an omnipotent being before the sun and earth exist? 7 days could mean 7 billion years. And you can pick and choose science, there are all sorts of unproved theories (such as string theory or big bang theory) that have evidence but aren't 100% proven. And theories are constantly being disproven, reproven, altered, etcetera. And several miracles could be done such as "purging demons from the body" meaning healing disease, just using terms they might have used then.
Back in the day when Christianity first came to be, there were no metaphors. Everyone believed that the Bible was 100% true and that everything said in there really happened. But as science became more and more popular, the supernatural stories in the Bible started to sound more and more silly. This was a big potential problem for Christianity because it's difficult to convert people when your main character is basically a wizard. But Christianity had an answer. What had been preached as the truth for centuries, suddenly became a metaphor or just a story. It's pretty clever actually, because this way it's pretty much impossible to disprove anything that happens in the Bible, because the person can always say that it isn't meant to be taken literally. It's the equivalent of having a geography book with all the country capitals screwed up, and when someone tries to correct it, you just say it's a metaphor for all people being equal.

I find it weird that as time goes by, religions just abandon many beliefs that have been the basis of those religions for so long, just so that the religion in question would better fit in the current world view. I think it's pretty insane to interpret the Bible (or any religious material) literally, but I do kind of respect these people, because even though they are wrong, they at least stand behind their beliefs. Then again by doing so, they are refusing to see all the contradicting evidence, which is really bad.


If a person believes that God created man, and we did not evolve from other species, they abandon the scientific method by ignoring all the evidence and replacing it with their own reality.
This is far from the truth. There are many respected scientists (see the Discovery Institute (http://www.discovery.org/about.php)) who do not believe that humans evolved from other species, or at least admit that the theory still has holes in it which have yet to be explained.
The way I see it, a religious scientist does not fully believe in science. As a scientist, that person knows that by adopting a religion, they partly abandon the scientific method. But the key here is that they choose to do so, even though they know it is very unlikely or impossible in terms of science.

Yes, there are still things in the theory of evolution that we cannot explain, but that has very little relevance when we have mountains of evidence for evolution. If we have 1000 pieces of evidence that tell us evolution is happening, and 1 piece of evidence we cannot explain, that does not mean that those 1000 pieces of evidence somehow become obsolete. All it means is that we cannot explain that one piece of evidence yet. But science will get there eventually because every day the evidence keeps piling up.


So while they can conflict they do not necessarily conflict. Therefore one can believe in both.
It's all semantics. How do you define "believe in science"?

I define it by accepting what scientific evidence tells us. For example scientific evidence strongly suggests that evolution happened, therefore I believe it happened and is happening. I do not randomly decide that I believe in one part of science, and not believe another part, even if that another part sounds strange to me. If a religious person does not believe in evolution, then that person does not believe 100% in science. It's as simple as that.

I think that science and religion cannot really coexist because they are basically two different theories. It's like me saying it's Monday and my friend saying it's Tuesday. Those two arguments cannot coexist because one of them is wrong and we cannot just agree that it's both Monday and Tuesday at the same time. There can be a million theories but there is only one truth. If science says that evolution happened and religion said it didn't happen, those contradicting claims cannot coexist no matter how much someone says they can.


Offline BluePriest

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg410298#msg410298
« Reply #77 on: October 15, 2011, 01:27:43 pm »
I define it by accepting what scientific evidence tells us. For example scientific evidence strongly suggests that evolution happened, therefore I believe it happened and is happening. I do not randomly decide that I believe in one part of science, and not believe another part, even if that another part sounds strange to me. If a religious person does not believe in evolution, then that person does not believe 100% in science. It's as simple as that.

I think that science and religion cannot really coexist because they are basically two different theories. It's like me saying it's Monday and my friend saying it's Tuesday. Those two arguments cannot coexist because one of them is wrong and we cannot just agree that it's both Monday and Tuesday at the same time. There can be a million theories but there is only one truth. If science says that evolution happened and religion said it didn't happen, those contradicting claims cannot coexist no matter how much someone says they can.
Lets just stop talking about evolution right here. You see, the problem you are running into, is that you believe you understand what creationists believe, when in reality, tget hardly understand what they are talking about half the time. Theres a reason I abandoned my evolution topics. Its because I partially changed my view, and from where my view changed, it would be too difficult to continue the discussion. Christians dont believe in abiogenesis. Things change, and we all agree it does. The part that they dont agree with is the part that is not falsifiable (aka origin of the species).
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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg410332#msg410332
« Reply #78 on: October 15, 2011, 02:59:12 pm »
Back in the day when Christianity first came to be, there were no metaphors. Everyone believed that the Bible was 100% true and that everything said in there really happened.
Excuse me, but that sounds like a load of crap. Do you, miss scientist, truly believe that noone used any metaphors at all? Do you have historical documents to prove it? You really think everyone believed the book 100%? Maybe the ignorant masses who weren't even literate may have taken everyting word for word but I doubt anywhere close to 100% took it literally. And even if a majority did take it literally, that doesn't mean it isn't full of metaphors. How do you explain something so large to someone who isnt very intelligent? Metaphors and similes, even hyperbole at times. if you take the bible as 100% true then the line "The lord is my shepherd" mean you must be, logically, a sheep.

It's all semantics. How do you define "believe in science"?

I define it by accepting what scientific evidence tells us. For example scientific evidence strongly suggests that evolution happened, therefore I believe it happened and is happening. I do not randomly decide that I believe in one part of science, and not believe another part, even if that another part sounds strange to me. If a religious person does not believe in evolution, then that person does not believe 100% in science. It's as simple as that.

I think that science and religion cannot really coexist because they are basically two different theories. It's like me saying it's Monday and my friend saying it's Tuesday. Those two arguments cannot coexist because one of them is wrong and we cannot just agree that it's both Monday and Tuesday at the same time. There can be a million theories but there is only one truth. If science says that evolution happened and religion said it didn't happen, those contradicting claims cannot coexist no matter how much someone says they can.


What about scientific theories that contradict eachother? Don't you choose which of the theories you believe has more evidence to support it? One I mentioned before string theory, it has evidence, but perhaps not enough so some scientists believe it to be true and some don't. By what you're saying, i would have to believe in it as well as other theories in order to believe in science "100%" which you said we would have to do to believe in it at all.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg410375#msg410375
« Reply #79 on: October 15, 2011, 04:17:15 pm »
So while they can conflict they do not necessarily conflict. Therefore one can believe in both.
It's all semantics. How do you define "believe in science"?

I define it by accepting what scientific evidence tells us. For example scientific evidence strongly suggests that evolution happened, therefore I believe it happened and is happening. I do not randomly decide that I believe in one part of science, and not believe another part, even if that another part sounds strange to me. If a religious person does not believe in evolution, then that person does not believe 100% in science. It's as simple as that.

I think that science and religion cannot really coexist because they are basically two different theories. It's like me saying it's Monday and my friend saying it's Tuesday. Those two arguments cannot coexist because one of them is wrong and we cannot just agree that it's both Monday and Tuesday at the same time. There can be a million theories but there is only one truth. If science says that evolution happened and religion said it didn't happen, those contradicting claims cannot coexist no matter how much someone says they can.
I define "belief in Science" as attempting to use Science to obtain all knowledge that can be obtained via testing of falsifiable beliefs. Some truths are not able to be known via testing of falsifiable beliefs. If a Religion only makes claims about truths that cannot be known by testing of falsifiable beliefs then it cannot conflict with Science. The Theory of Gravity and the Moral theory of Utilitarianism are different theories. Note these two theories do not and cannot conflict. Some Religion will argue with Science but it is not a necessary condition of a Religion for it to even talk about the same topics as Science does.

Albert Einstein believed in Science and made many great advances. He was also a Deist. Note the Religious beliefs he had (aka his Religion) did not ever conflict with Science.
Quote from: wiki
Einstein's views on religious belief have been collected from interviews and original writings. These views covered theological determinism, agnosticism, humanism along with ethical culture, opting for Spinoza's god over belief in a personal god.
Quote from: Spinoza's god definition
Spinozism (also spelt Spinoza-ism or Spinozaism) is the monist philosophical system of Baruch Spinoza which defines "God" as a singular self-subsistent substance, and both matter and thought as attributes of such.
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Offline doublecross

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg415871#msg415871
« Reply #80 on: October 26, 2011, 04:25:54 am »
But see, religion is the attempt of people to understand. So you can't say that it doesn't even try, because it is the effort to understand.
If it is an attempt of people to understand, than it is a lazy one.
As a scientist, the thing I hold at the core of my being is a desire to understand, and a vast appreciation of the simultaneous complexity of the system, and the simplicity of the rules behind the system.   The willingness to settle for an explanation such as, "Some un-provable deity said so." really seems to me like giving up.

Let me direct your attention back to the ancient Greeks.     I will admit that their religion and mythology offered explanation to confusing, un-obvious phenomenon, but I would not say that belief in these would in any way constitute an attempt to understand.

In fact, it would not be hard to argue that while the belief system grew out of a *desire* to understand- to explain the unexplained- there is no real effort made to find the truth.  A story was able to fill the void caused by lack of knowing.

Only those who did not accept the stories and actually tried to find the truth showed a true desire to understand.   Religion was for those who had unanswered questions, but were too lazy to try and find the actual answers, and were willing to accept anything remotely plausible to fill the void.
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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg415902#msg415902
« Reply #81 on: October 26, 2011, 05:45:26 am »
Theoretically. Name a religion that does not conflict, please?
IF there is a "superior being", which I believe we all agree can not be proven one way or the other, then it stands to reason that that being can interact with our world, and influence it if he so chooses. The virgin birth, would be one example of that. This does not relate to religious people not believing in science, as some would like to point out. It just means that religious people think there is more to life than science (which does not mean they believe science any less)

Quote from: Scaredgirl
There's everything from walking on water to virgin birth. Evolution is a good example of something that has tens of thousands of pieces of scientific evidence, yet it's completely different from how Christianity tells us of how humans came to be.
Uhm, making the claim evolution is a theory isn't very wise of you. Evolution is a hypothesis. this is a quote from answers in genesis "1. (“Theory” has a stronger meaning in scientific fields than in general usage; it is better to say that evolution is just a hypothesis or one model to explain the untestable past.)"

Evolution is a theory not a fact.

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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg415904#msg415904
« Reply #82 on: October 26, 2011, 05:48:00 am »
Um... you going to add anything, or just put a large multi-user quote that gives no indication of what your point is?
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Re: Why should I forsake science and believe in religion instead? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31907.msg415909#msg415909
« Reply #83 on: October 26, 2011, 05:54:14 am »
Um... you going to add anything, or just put a large multi-user quote that gives no indication of what your point is?
sorry something happened, i actually did put something, but idk why it didn't appear
Theoretically. Name a religion that does not conflict, please?
IF there is a "superior being", which I believe we all agree can not be proven one way or the other, then it stands to reason that that being can interact with our world, and influence it if he so chooses. The virgin birth, would be one example of that. This does not relate to religious people not believing in science, as some would like to point out. It just means that religious people think there is more to life than science (which does not mean they believe science any less)

Quote from: Scaredgirl
There's everything from walking on water to virgin birth. Evolution is a good example of something that has tens of thousands of pieces of scientific evidence, yet it's completely different from how Christianity tells us of how humans came to be.
Uhm, making the claim evolution is a theory isn't very wise of you. Evolution is a hypothesis. this is a quote from answers in genesis "1. (“Theory” has a stronger meaning in scientific fields than in general usage; it is better to say that evolution is just a hypothesis or one model to explain the untestable past.)"

Evolution is a theory not a fact.
It's not very wise of you to state evolution is a theory, because it isn't, its a hypothesis. Quote from answersingenesis "(“Theory” has a stronger meaning in scientific fields than in general usage; it is better to say that evolution is just a hypothesis or one model to explain the untestable past.)"

And scaredgirl, did you really meant to put that someone who believes in religious throws away part of the scientific method. or What i'm sure you meant is that they throw away what the scientific method has proven, not the scientific method itself. But for example assuming God exists even though science has "proven" people don't naturally rise from the dead, does that mean God can't bring someone back to life? If there is a God and he created everything does he not have the power to bring someone back to life? How does me believing that God has the power to raise someone from the dead make me throw out the scientific method? And you mentioned that there are many evidences that support evolution, can you name some?

 

anything
blarg: