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acelink

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8577.msg125758#msg125758
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2010, 06:55:46 pm »
Actually I don't think it is up to you to decide for me to define my beliefs (or anyones, even though it seems to be what you are trying to do. Then again, putting a label on something doesn't make it true) . I am currently an atheist, aka I don't believe in anything religious, but also an agnostic as I search for what I don't believe in in hopes of finding it?
I am not trying to define your beliefs but you should have some knowledge as to what words mean.  But you cannot be both Agnostic and Atheist.

Here is a good example of what I mean when you cannot have both answers. 

Is the Universe infinite or finite?
1) If the universe is infinite, this is beyond our comprehension.

2) If the universe has an end, what does it look like? Is there something outside it? Then again, it's infinite and beyond our comprehension.
There is no middle ground.  It either is or is not infinite and cannot be both.

To be an Atheist literally means: You do not believe in god.
To be an Agnostic means: You do not know if there is a god or it is impossible to tell.

There is no middle ground.  Either there is no god or it is impossible to tell.


I am currently an atheist, aka I don't believe in anything religious
You are misusing the word, Atheist.  As I mentioned before, to be an Atheist means you do not believe in god.  To say you do not believe in anything religious does not make you atheist nessearily.

SeddyRocky

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8577.msg125797#msg125797
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2010, 07:32:09 pm »
God OR gods actually, as a theist doesn't have to be monotheist.  I used religious as a simplification and to address that I do not believe in anything supernatural such as pantheism, wiccan, etc, which are religions not involving gods.

Agnostic, however, I have heard quite a few definitions of. Angry at God,  uncertain, etc.

But to take your definitions:

To be an Atheist literally means: You do not believe in god.
To be an Agnostic means: You do not know if there is a god or it is impossible to tell.

My beliefs = I don't believe that there is a God (or gods/anything of the kind) but I don't know if that is true. Which fits fairly well. Or out of curiosity, is there a single word for it?

finkel

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8577.msg125802#msg125802
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2010, 07:35:05 pm »
No religion has any better proof that theirs is the right one. I'm not a spiritual/religious person, at least not in the sense that I believe in spirits, gods, or anything of the like. Molitor Patel, the main character in "Life of Pi" (one of my favorite books), practices several religions, and doesn't see any reason not to. My problem with religion is the same as my problem with government and justice. It's all arbitrary. You can never have a true functioning democracy with millions of people, and there's no real way to compare rape to theft of intellectual property (information), so we make stuff up. My problem is that most religions claim to not be made up. They claim to be absolutely true. The word of god.

I have a few problems with christianity, specifically, among which are:
-If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then free will cannot exist. God either controls everything or controls nothing, because by choosing not to control something, he is in effect controlling it. Therefor, I don't understand the story at all. It just seems so muddled to me. God gave Adam and Eve Free Will and they commit a sin (eating the apple), so we're all born with sin? That just doesn't make sense to me. God had to have known they'd eat the apple. He made the serpent tell Eve to eat it, because he knew it completely, and so controlled it.

-Where does the rest of the universe fit into god's week-long creation-spree? If he spent 7 days making just the earth, imagine how long he spent making the moon, the rest of the planets in our solar system, galaxy... O.O
Also, how come the sun took him no time at all while the earth took so long? The sun's gi-freaking-normous compared to the earth. Why make it in intervals over the course of a week? I mean, why 7 days? Any reason, besides humans later coming up with that interval of time

My biggest problem with religion is that nobody can really argue that they've got the right book. It seems to me like somebody came up with the bible to make people stop f*cking around and as a form of law, and just lied and told people it was god's word, or was misled and thought that god really spoke to him. It makes perfect sense.

I suppose I could believe in a god that was just like a guy playing the sims, but then again, I don't really get anything out of it, and I'm not going to give him the satisfaction of paying attention to him xD

Rundas

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8577.msg125812#msg125812
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2010, 07:41:35 pm »
I am not trying to define your beliefs but you should have some knowledge as to what words mean.  But you cannot be both Agnostic and Atheist.

Here is a good example of what I mean when you cannot have both answers. 

Is the Universe infinite or finite?
1) If the universe is infinite, this is beyond our comprehension.

2) If the universe has an end, what does it look like? Is there something outside it? Then again, it's infinite and beyond our comprehension.
There is no middle ground.  It either is or is not infinite and cannot be both.

To be an Atheist literally means: You do not believe in god.
To be an Agnostic means: You do not know if there is a god or it is impossible to tell.

There is no middle ground.  Either there is no god or it is impossible to tell.

Yes, you can be both. Someone might claim that he does not believe there are gods and at the same time, say that he doesn't know if there are gods. Both statements are not mutually exclusive since agnosticism is about what you know and theism/atheism is about what you believe.

I think your example is wrong because anyone can say "I don't know if the universe is infinite but...

a) ...I believe it is infinite.
b) ...I don't believe it is infinite

The red part with option a is analogous to agnostic theism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism) and with option b is similar to agnostic atheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism).


PD: there are different types of agnosticism regarding to the possibility of knowing [at some point in the future] whether there are or not gods.


I apologize for my grammar.
Regards.

Offline Belthus

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8577.msg125835#msg125835
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2010, 08:16:14 pm »
By my junior year in college, I had decided that a scientific view of the world was the best approach, so I concluded that I was an atheist.
I find it funny that you came to the conclusion that there is no god on the basis of a scientific approach.  What I find funny about that is science does little to disprove or prove that a god does or does not exist.  In fact there is no real concrete evidence to prove god does or does not exist.  Everything is speculation.
I did not use the word "proof." I used the word "approach." Science is a work-in-progress and always will be. However, it has shown itself to be extremely robust, not only improving our lives but providing explanations for phenomena that were previously thought to be evil spirits or gods or other supernatural phenomena. Any religion has thousands of little claims, and some of these have not been tested. Wherever there has been an adequate test, a scientific explanation can do a much better job in accounting for evidence than any religious explanation. That's why even religious people take advantage of scientific knowledge and technology. So overall, for those who care about how well their world view performs in practical terms, science has an excellent track record.

Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8577.msg126042#msg126042
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2010, 12:25:43 am »
I thought I’d toss in what I believe to be a fantastic quote on the ‘why’ behind atheism.

The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable. – Brennan Manning

Artois

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8577.msg126289#msg126289
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2010, 07:51:07 am »
I thought I’d toss in what I believe to be a fantastic quote on the ‘why’ behind atheism.

The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable. – Brennan Manning
I wish I'd read that before!  Very thought provoking.

I guess, that anyone who did the Christian thing to the T, as in biblically correct, would be considered unhinged by atheists and the average Christian?!

smuglapse

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8577.msg126321#msg126321
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2010, 09:27:38 am »
I thought I’d toss in what I believe to be a fantastic quote on the ‘why’ behind atheism.

The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable. – Brennan Manning
That sounds like something a pastor would say to their congregation.  It is not a reason "why" to be an atheist.

Offline Daytripper

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8577.msg126445#msg126445
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2010, 02:30:39 pm »
Quote
There is no middle ground.  It either is or is not infinite and cannot be both.

To be an Atheist literally means: You do not believe in god.
To be an Agnostic means: You do not know if there is a god or it is impossible to tell.

There is no middle ground.  Either there is no god or it is impossible to tell.
I don't know why you said that here, but that is not what I meant. I never said the universe was finite and infinte. I said if the universe is finite, is there something outside it? Then what is outside is then infinite nothingness. But what on earth is the nature of infinite nothingness?

On the other hand if the universe is finite and there is nothing outside it, and I mean actually nothing, and not nothingness, however that is possible, then that is truly mindboggling. Is it some type off barrier we cannot go through? Or did the universe solve this by expanding so fast we cannot get to the end? But then, if the universe is expanding, what is it expanding INTO? That would again suggest there is nothingness outside the universe.

Just pointing out the HUGE problem with the nature of the universe. According to standard semantics something cannot both be true and false in the same meaning, or contradicting, but there may be exceptions we don't understand yet.


Shards aren't overpowered, as long as you have them yourself.

Innominate

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8577.msg126487#msg126487
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2010, 04:16:22 pm »
The reason I don't believe in any gods is best summed up by this quote (which is attributed to Epicurus, the Greek philosopher, but may be just a pithy rephrasing of his actual words):
Quote from: Epicurus
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
There are more subtleties to it than that (and indeed I have many more objections), but that's the gist of it.

Another, more modern question (also not my devising): Why doesn't god heal amputees?
This one only rebutts interventionist deities, but it does so extremely well.

Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8577.msg126812#msg126812
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2010, 11:21:39 pm »
I thought I’d toss in what I believe to be a fantastic quote on the ‘why’ behind atheism.

The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable. – Brennan Manning
I wish I'd read that before!  Very thought provoking.

I guess, that anyone who did the Christian thing to the T, as in biblically correct, would be considered unhinged by atheists and the average Christian?!

I think it shows that hypocrisy is the greatest way to disenfranchise followers of any individual, and turn away observers of any group. In one reading, you could substitute the “Christianity” of that quote for any religion, or political party, or celebrity, and it would still ring true.

But yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you – if anyone was living their life today according to the example of Jesus and his instructions, rather than the culture of 2,000 years of church history, I imagine they would stick out quite a bit.



That sounds like something a pastor would say to their congregation.  It is not a reason "why" to be an atheist.
As people, one of the most powerful motivators for us to change an idea, or take on a new one, is personal recommendation and proof. Marketers will tell you that the most effective form of advertising is word of mouth. If you have a friend, whom you respect, and they encourage you to try a new product, and they have used it themselves, and you can see the benefit it has brought to their life, you will be far more likely to try it yourself, than if a stranger simply told you it was good.

It is the nub of the “actions speak louder than words” principle, alongside “practice what you preach, and “physician, heal thyself.”

Just look at many of the arguments people will raise against a point – so many of them hinge upon the human examples of those who adhere to that point, rather than a philosophical assessment. To stick with religion for a moment, I have seen many people say, “I don’t believe in religion because of terrorists blowing other people / themselves up, the Crusades, paedophile priests, clashes in the Kashmir etc.” I see fewer comments along the lines of, “I have thoroughly examined the philosophy and doctrine of religion X, and I find them irreconcilable.” That isn’t to say they aren’t there; there’s just fewer of them.

Humans are a herd creature. We love to run with the crowd. When we see someone with something great, we’ll say, “I’ll have what she’s having.” Conversely, when we see hypocrisy, or even if we just see lives which don’t measure up to their claims, we become disillusioned, much as we do when the actual achievements of a political term don’t match up to the campaign promises.

Of course, I am making generalisations, and I’ll bet dollars to deutschmarks that there’ll be those out there who will post, or at least think, “That’s poppycock! My life decisions are based purely on my own experience, and my intellectual conclusions, not the actions of anyone else!” Without me knowing you personally, I’m not about to argue with you about your life. But I will say that I believe, with a degree of certainty, that whoever you are, whatever you believe, there will be a strong element of human influence that went into that personality and those beliefs you carry around today.

acelink

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8577.msg126977#msg126977
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2010, 04:25:04 am »
Quote
There is no middle ground.  It either is or is not infinite and cannot be both.

To be an Atheist literally means: You do not believe in god.
To be an Agnostic means: You do not know if there is a god or it is impossible to tell.

There is no middle ground.  Either there is no god or it is impossible to tell.
I don't know why you said that here, but that is not what I meant. I never said the universe was finite and infinte.
I understand that is not what you meant... BUT you need to understand the words you are using--you were misusing the term atheism.  To be an Atheist means you do not believe God exists.  You should not proclaim to be an atheist if you do not hold the stance of "there is no god".

The point of the universe was just an example of why you cannot be both atheist and agnostic.  It is either one or the other, NOT BOTH.


I am not trying to define your beliefs but you should have some knowledge as to what words mean.  But you cannot be both Agnostic and Atheist.

Here is a good example of what I mean when you cannot have both answers. 

Is the Universe infinite or finite?
1) If the universe is infinite, this is beyond our comprehension.

2) If the universe has an end, what does it look like? Is there something outside it? Then again, it's infinite and beyond our comprehension.
There is no middle ground.  It either is or is not infinite and cannot be both.

To be an Atheist literally means: You do not believe in god.
To be an Agnostic means: You do not know if there is a god or it is impossible to tell.

There is no middle ground.  Either there is no god or it is impossible to tell.

Yes, you can be both. Someone might claim that he does not believe there are gods and at the same time, say that he doesn't know if there are gods. Both statements are not mutually exclusive since agnosticism is about what you know and theism/atheism is about what you believe. 
No you cannot.  They are not mutually exclusive--take the implications of each one. 

If you believe there is no god, then you accept (know) there is no god. 
If you accept (know) "god is unknown or unknowable" then you believe that you never will be able comprehend god or know he does or does not exist.

The wikipedia "atheistic agnosticism" or "agnostic theism" is a bullshit way of putting... A person who believes there is no god but does not know it or a person who knows there is a god but does not believe it.  If you say there is a god, then you believe there is a god.  It is illogical know something and not believe it or to not know and believe something.

Walk up to someone and say "I believe there is a god" then say "I don't know if he exists".  They would LAUGH at you...

Argument Restated/Rephrased:
The agnostic pleads ignorance.  "God is unknown or unknowable" 
The atheist says "There is no god"

Either you know there is no god or plead ignorance... cannot be both.  You know there is no god and "god is unknown or knowable"?  Not logical.

Atheist take: Atheist says there is no god then god is NOT "unknown/unknowable" for God is known--he does not exist.  Thereby dispelling the agnostic belief.

Agnostic take: Agnostic says "god is unknown/unknowable" then he knows not if God does or does not exist.  To state god does not exist would be to say God is known.  Thereby dispelling their agnostic belief.

The reason I don't believe in any gods is best summed up by this quote (which is attributed to Epicurus, the Greek philosopher, but may be just a pithy rephrasing of his actual words):
Quote from: Epicurus
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
There are more subtleties to it than that (and indeed I have many more objections), but that's the gist of it.

Another, more modern question (also not my devising): Why doesn't god heal amputees?
This one only rebutts interventionist deities, but it does so extremely well.
Side note:
To be omnipotent means to be able to do anything that is possible. 

What I mean by this is: If god is all-powerful, then he should be able to make a stone he could not lift.  BUT it is impossible for him to create a stone he could not lift.  He can only do what is possible--omnipotent (not all-powerful with the ability to do anything).

So my point with this is... maybe it is not possible to prevent evil.  God would still be still omnipotent.

Epicurus's argument is still has a valid point.  If god is not able to prevent evil, then why call him god?

God OR gods actually, as a theist doesn't have to be monotheist.  I used religious as a simplification and to address that I do not believe in anything supernatural such as pantheism, wiccan, etc, which are religions not involving gods.

Agnostic, however, I have heard quite a few definitions of. Angry at God,  uncertain, etc.

But to take THE definitions:

To be an Atheist literally means: You do not believe in god.
To be an Agnostic means: You do not know if there is a god or it is impossible to tell.

My beliefs = I don't believe that there is a God (or gods/anything of the kind) but I don't know if that is true. Which fits fairly well. Or out of curiosity, is there a single word for it?
Why do you believe that there is no god if you do not know?  Explain your reasoning.

It is illogical to believe without knowing.  To know but not believe.  If you are illogical then there is no point in having an argument with you.

There are a variety of claims God does or does not exist.  Dogma, intuition, logic. But the problem with logic is there is no solid evidence to prove or disprove.  (There is our agnostic!)

 

anything
blarg: