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Artois

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Why don't you believe in God(s)? (Semi-Permalink)
« on: June 23, 2010, 06:12:44 pm »
I'm curious as to how, why or where my fellow non-believers came to be.  Were you taught atheism as a child?  Were you a young muslim once, before rejecting the teachings?  Are you an ex-mormon who fancied a change?

I'm very curious...

Offline Belthus

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2010, 07:11:03 pm »
My father's side of the family is Episcopal (i.e., Anglican), but we never attended church. I grew up believing in God in a general way. I would read the illustrated Bible stories in the doctor's office while in the waiting room. I had a red-letter copy of the New Testament and was pretty impressed with Jesus.

One year, in the summer after 6th grade, I went to Bible study camp at a nearby Episcopal church. (As an aside, the Episcopal Church in the US has both mainline and evangelical congregations. My father's family is mainline; the Bible study camp was run by an evangelical church.) After the summer was over, I was invited to join the church's youth group. I was in it for several months, but I was ambivalent about it. Everyone was nice enough, but it was always Jesus this and Jesus that, which was weird for me. I remember missing a Superbowl because my father insisted that I go to the youth group meeting, even though I wanted to skip that week and we had both followed the teams that year. I eventually quit because of the too-much-Jesus weirdness I mentioned above.

By the end of high school, I was an agnostic. Just thinking about religion, I figured that we didn't know the relevant events in the same way that we know who is President or how to cook spaghetti. I also followed the efforts of the some evangelical Christians to outlaw pornography, and I was very firmly in favor of having the right to look at photos of naked women. :D At some point, I came across Betrand Russell's Why I Am Not a Christian, and that resonated with me. By my junior year in college, I had decided that a scientific view of the world was the best approach, so I concluded that I was an atheist.

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2010, 11:51:11 pm »
Let me tell you instead why I DO believe in God(s): because science sucks at explaining my life.

Too many things have happened to me -- from spontaneous telempathic events to literal magic spells working when I performed them, not to mention physically seeing and speaking with something that I could only interpret as a goddess of the moon and wind -- that science wants to write off as biochemical and statistical noise for me to be comfortable buying in to the mechanical/Newtonian scientific model of the universe.

Oddly enough, quantum physics has recently started coming to some of the same conclusions that I did early in my life, so I'm starting to think that maybe science isn't all bad.  String theory now says essentially that the act of observation not only defines reality, but literally creates it, much like an MMORPG doens't actually render any part of the landscape until a player is there to look at it. 

I like that kind of reality, because it means that objectively unverifiable experiences like my chat with a goddess aren't invalidated by a Newtonian tyranocrat, but rather that the reality created by my observation of a goddess is merely inaccessible to the observations of others and thus (through Wittgensteinian reasoning) impossible to meaningfully discuss in a scientific setting.  I'm cool with that.

8)
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Offline Daytripper

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2010, 10:15:58 pm »
Ah well.

My parents never really taught me anything. My mother is an atheist and from an atheist family and my father was mind played by the church too many times. I have to say they never really stressed this. I even had to go to bible class. I must have been 10 or 11 by then. By that time I was already an atheist because I had books about dinosaurs. Evolution and religion didn't really mix when I was a kid, so I discarded the stories quite easily. Though I have to say the lady from the bible class was nice and I never told her I was an atheist.
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kalkiran

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2010, 10:40:08 pm »
essence what on  :earth is a telempathic experience?  ???
anyway i just never really believed in it(religion) my families quite religous though-i just never needed god and never really thought about him and when i did i had no faith in him.

acelink

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2010, 05:45:13 am »
My father's side of the family is Episcopal (i.e., Anglican), but we never attended church. I grew up believing in God in a general way. I would read the illustrated Bible stories in the doctor's office while in the waiting room. I had a red-letter copy of the New Testament and was pretty impressed with Jesus.

One year, in the summer after 6th grade, I went to Bible study camp at a nearby Episcopal church. (As an aside, the Episcopal Church in the US has both mainline and evangelical congregations. My father's family is mainline; the Bible study camp was run by an evangelical church.) After the summer was over, I was invited to join the church's youth group. I was in it for several months, but I was ambivalent about it. Everyone was nice enough, but it was always Jesus this and Jesus that, which was weird for me. I remember missing a Superbowl because my father insisted that I go to the youth group meeting, even though I wanted to skip that week and we had both followed the teams that year. I eventually quit because of the too-much-Jesus weirdness I mentioned above.

By the end of high school, I was an agnostic. Just thinking about religion, I figured that we didn't know the relevant events in the same way that we know who is President or how to cook spaghetti. I also followed the efforts of the some evangelical Christians to outlaw pornography, and I was very firmly in favor of having the right to look at photos of naked women. :D At some point, I came across Betrand Russell's Why I Am Not a Christian, and that resonated with me. By my junior year in college, I had decided that a scientific view of the world was the best approach, so I concluded that I was an atheist.
I find it funny that you came to the conclusion that there is no god on the basis of a scientific approach.  What I find funny about that is science does little to disprove or prove that a god does or does not exist.  In fact there is no real concrete evidence to prove god does or does not exist.  Everything is speculation.

I believe that you dislike the Christian viewpoint because of the values attached within the religion.  Not nessarily that you do not believe in a god, you do not acknowledge the widely accepted Christian interpretation to be true.  Whether or not God actually said/believes the Bible is another argument... to become atheist after not accepting a religion is not great logic.

The real problem with God is the conception of God.  We use symbols to communicate God but those symbols are not descriptive enough and limit the conception of god.  Typical god conception is that God is omnipotent, omniscient and infallible but that is severely limiting because God is so much more than that.  "The name that can be named is not the eternal name"--Taoist Saying...

I believe you should explore your beliefs more but at the same time that may get you no where.  Buddha stopped questioning the metaphysical after coming to the conclusion that there is no certainty.

Ah well.

My parents never really taught me anything. My mother is an atheist and from an atheist family and my father was mind played by the church too many times. I have to say they never really stressed this. I even had to go to bible class. I must have been 10 or 11 by then. By that time I was already an atheist because I had books about dinosaurs. Evolution and religion didn't really mix when I was a kid, so I discarded the stories quite easily. Though I have to say the lady from the bible class was nice and I never told her I was an atheist.
That is similar to the post I stated above.  You do not believe in Christianity.  Christianity and God are separate issues although they are closely related.  Just because you do not believe in Christianity does not make you Atheist by any means.  You should explore your beliefs more.  Maybe you believe that it does not matter if god or god does not exist and do not bother answering if god does exist.

Let me tell you instead why I DO believe in God(s): because science sucks at explaining my life.

Too many things have happened to me -- from spontaneous telempathic events to literal magic spells working when I performed them, not to mention physically seeing and speaking with something that I could only interpret as a goddess of the moon and wind -- that science wants to write off as biochemical and statistical noise for me to be comfortable buying in to the mechanical/Newtonian scientific model of the universe.

Oddly enough, quantum physics has recently started coming to some of the same conclusions that I did early in my life, so I'm starting to think that maybe science isn't all bad.  String theory now says essentially that the act of observation not only defines reality, but literally creates it, much like an MMORPG doens't actually render any part of the landscape until a player is there to look at it. 

I like that kind of reality, because it means that objectively unverifiable experiences like my chat with a goddess aren't invalidated by a Newtonian tyranocrat, but rather that the reality created by my observation of a goddess is merely inaccessible to the observations of others and thus (through Wittgensteinian reasoning) impossible to meaningfully discuss in a scientific setting.  I'm cool with that.

8)
I don't believe string theory talks about reality at all.  It is an attempt to explain the big bang--the big bang is just a byproduct of two planes colliding.

What you are approaching is a more metaphysical perspective.  You are describing a monist perspective of the mind.  Idealism.  An idealist would answer the question of "If a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound?"  with "No because there is no one to experience it."  Whereas a body monist, materialist, would say "Yes it did make a sound because it physically happened."

Basically, idealist believes the world is all mind (or spiritual).  Materialist believes the world is all physical.  And there are a variety of dualist beliefs that are a mix between the mind/body.

You should look into a philosophy-metaphysics class.  Here is a great thought experiment for you to ponder with the Mind/Body problem.  Where Am I? by Dennett (http://www.newbanner.com/SecHumSCM/WhereAmI.html)

More about Idealism:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism

Feel free to ask me about any of your philosophy questions... I should be able to help with them.

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2010, 08:57:37 am »
Quote
That is similar to the post I stated above.  You do not believe in Christianity.  Christianity and God are separate issues although they are closely related.  Just because you do not believe in Christianity does not make you Atheist by any means.  You should explore your beliefs more.  Maybe you believe that it does not matter if god or god does not exist and do not bother answering if god does exist.

 
That is correct... Issues I have are usually with strict forms of organized religion, not with the existence of a deity.

That being said I still don't see how I could believe in a deity. I asked people often enough but they couldn't explain it either.
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twinsbuster

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2010, 09:27:45 am »
:Why I should believe in God?
:Because the Bible said there is one.

:Why I should believe the Bible?
:Because it is the words from God.

So Why the god must be the one mentioned in Bible?

acelink

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2010, 09:43:46 am »
Quote
That is similar to the post I stated above.  You do not believe in Christianity.  Christianity and God are separate issues although they are closely related.  Just because you do not believe in Christianity does not make you Atheist by any means.  You should explore your beliefs more.  Maybe you believe that it does not matter if god or god does not exist and do not bother answering if god does exist.

 
That is correct... Issues I have are usually with strict forms of organized religion, not with the existence of a deity.

That being said I still don't see how I could believe in a deity. I asked people often enough but they couldn't explain it either.
I don't consider my belief to be the typical reasoning amongst others.  My belief stems from the idea of being other dimensions outside of the three we know of and that there are higher dimensional beings out there.  From that I announce them to be of 'higher power' so to speak as they carry god-like qualities in comparison to us as they are seemingly all powerful and all knowing.

Book that kinda covers my points about dimensions and other things.   Flattlands by Abbot  (http://books.google.com/books?id=R6E0AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=flatland+abbott&hl=en&ei=i6ZOTNWKM4nmsQP2sbnyBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Term paper in a few weeks and I still have yet to write it.  The topic is another approach to (a) god.  It all began as a thought process I went through while exploring an idealist implications about dreams/reality.  It begins with the differentiation between dreams and reality.  While we are dreaming, everything appears to be real but only after we wake up do we find out it was a dream.  So is our reality a dream?  ......  A few pages later I'll finally reach the topic of god......

I'll post a PDF when I'm finished....

:Why I should believe in God?
:Because the Bible said there is one.

:Why I should believe the Bible?
:Because it is the words from God.
Splitting your words into the branches of philosophy:

Axiology: -------------
Metaphysics: One and only god
Epistemology: The Bible

Axiology:The study of value (Ethics)
Metaphysics: What is real.
Epistemology: Knowledge (Logic)

Basically restating what you said.  I believe there is one and only God because I take the Bible to be true. 

SeddyRocky

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2010, 03:56:09 pm »
To quote my own post but add some more:

Quote
I would love to be anything but an atheist. Life would be so much simpler if I just believed that I was created, for a purpose (is that purpose ever mentioned though?) and will have an afterlife of some sort and probably worship a divine being. Problem is that I can't. I just cannot swallow any religion I've come across so far as credible.

Christianity: We are created in gods image, we are imperfect. Ok, considering that God has:
- Slayed countless amounts of people for reasons that are extremly petty or just plain stupid. Also displaying several horrible streaks of personality.
- Let everyone not born in a christian country go to hell. (Person A was born in a village in Africa. He/She has never faced christianity in any form and has no knowledge of its existance. Yet, as a non-believer, he/she will go to hell...) What kind of all-loving God would do that? Or would slay the sexually loose people of Sodom and Gomorrah but not Lots daughters that had incest sex with him...?
- Flood the earth, killing almost everyone and "starting over"...
- Create bacterias that could kill us, viruses... Not exactly an all loving one?
- Last but not least: Given us brains, intelligence, extelligence (information stored outside the body, such as common information in a tribe or a webpage on the internet) and the ability to think for ourselves and to question him, but smite us if we do? Free will is all good, but how free can we be with soooo many rules?

Most of this also applies to Judaism and Islam, of course.

Hindu:
- Don't know too much, but alll those gods... not likely.
- Caste system cannot have been put in place by gods.
- System of karma is a nice thought though.

Buddhism
- Can almost swallow this one, but the whole divine birth of buddha and all the mystical stuff....
I was a part of the swedish lutheran-evangelical church (still a passive member), also in the church choir from age 7 to 10 and youth group from 7-12. But around the time of 12, I gradually realized that I did not really believe in anything supernatural such as religion. I had stayed with the church because I agreed with their values (still do by the way, though this does not go for most denominations of Christianity worldwide) but I did not share their beliefs. I just did not believe that there was a God, that any mythical being created humans or that we are judged by a higher power. Today, I'm more of a agnostic atheist, not believing, but I'd like to. It's just that my brain usually refuses to blindly believe in supernatural things, and so far no religion has met my demands (sounds really disturbing, but the language barrier doesn't allow me to formulate myself better).

acelink

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2010, 05:35:19 pm »
To quote my own post but add some more:

Quote
I would love to be anything but an atheist. Life would be so much simpler if I just believed that I was created, for a purpose (is that purpose ever mentioned though?) and will have an afterlife of some sort and probably worship a divine being. Problem is that I can't. I just cannot swallow any religion I've come across so far as credible.

Christianity: We are created in gods image, we are imperfect. Ok, considering that God has:
- Slayed countless amounts of people for reasons that are extremly petty or just plain stupid. Also displaying several horrible streaks of personality.
- Let everyone not born in a christian country go to hell. (Person A was born in a village in Africa. He/She has never faced christianity in any form and has no knowledge of its existance. Yet, as a non-believer, he/she will go to hell...) What kind of all-loving God would do that? Or would slay the sexually loose people of Sodom and Gomorrah but not Lots daughters that had incest sex with him...?
- Flood the earth, killing almost everyone and "starting over"...
- Create bacterias that could kill us, viruses... Not exactly an all loving one?
- Last but not least: Given us brains, intelligence, extelligence (information stored outside the body, such as common information in a tribe or a webpage on the internet) and the ability to think for ourselves and to question him, but smite us if we do? Free will is all good, but how free can we be with soooo many rules?

Most of this also applies to Judaism and Islam, of course.

Hindu:
- Don't know too much, but alll those gods... not likely.
- Caste system cannot have been put in place by gods.
- System of karma is a nice thought though.

Buddhism
- Can almost swallow this one, but the whole divine birth of buddha and all the mystical stuff....
I was a part of the swedish lutheran-evangelical church (still a passive member), also in the church choir from age 7 to 10 and youth group from 7-12. But around the time of 12, I gradually realized that I did not really believe in anything supernatural such as religion. I had stayed with the church because I agreed with their values (still do by the way, though this does not go for most denominations of Christianity worldwide) but I did not share their beliefs. I just did not believe that there was a God, that any mythical being created humans or that we are judged by a higher power. Today, I'm more of a agnostic atheist, not believing, but I'd like to. It's just that my brain usually refuses to blindly believe in supernatural things, and so far no religion has met my demands (sounds really disturbing, but the language barrier doesn't allow me to formulate myself better).
First thing I have to say is that you either Atheist or Agnostic... you cannot be both.  You can have some beliefs from both but not the titles.  It is okay to say "I do not know but I know I do not believe Christian portrayal of God."

Let me point out some things things for you.

Hindu
It is a pantheism.  Basically believes that nature and god are the same.

Buddhism
Buddhism at it's core is a philosophy, not a religion.  Buddha means "Enlightened One" not divine birth.

-The Buddha believes in reincarnation but not the stereotypical 'rebirth' where one attains a new vessel.  It is more like The Lion King circle of life thing... 
-Buddha only really finds four truths in life, everything else he is not certain of.  His four truths: Life is suffering. Suffering is caused by selfish craving.  There is a salvation.  Here is the/a path (8 fold path).
-Buddha's Last Words: "All formations are impermanent.  Observe this carefully and constantly."  One of the strongest quotes anyone that I know of has said.  It is another way of saying be open minded, know your place in the world, all things come to an end, no one is greater than anyone else and various other things.

Buddhism is essentially a way of thought.  The Buddhist path, like most Eastern philosophies, is all about finding the answers rather than answering them.  That is the opposite of Christianity which only answers questions with blind faith... and to me, Buddhism is a lot more satisfying in comparison to Christianity--although I do believe the values of Christianity to be in the right place.

SeddyRocky

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Re: Why don't you believe in God(s)? (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2010, 06:20:56 pm »
Actually I don't think it is up to you to decide for me to define my beliefs (or anyones, even though it seems to be what you are trying to do. Then again, putting a label on something doesn't make it true) . I am currently an atheist, aka I don't believe in anything religious, but also an agnostic as I search for what I don't believe in in hopes of finding it?

Thank you for the summary of hinduism. I know the meaning of Buddha, the various denominations from Mahayana to Teravada, but the whole mystical part of the religion (Buddha being born from a white elephant's trunk touching his mothers thigh, that's what I meant by divine birth) I cannot really accept. If Buddhism had not been an established religion but a "purebred" philosophy (which is probably what Buddha would have wanted seeing as he saw what blind worship did to people) I could probably have taken a full liking to it, but before I can absorb it as a whole... It will have to wait. It is at the top of my list though.

 

blarg: