Why do you care?

[Innominate]

what you are doing brings me back to the original point. So is that why you care? Because God tells you what to do? What is it he tells you that you shouldnt do that you have a problem with? Murder? Stealing? Lieing? Adultery? Do you not like it that he says to love your neighbor?

I have no problem with the loving the neighbour stuff. It's the "eternal hell" bit that gets to me.

The part that we have a choice of if we want to go to heaven or hell, and you can choose hell if you want? Yeah, choices stink. Why cant God just either
A)Give no consequences for anything, and make us live in a life where we can do whatever we want, whether its kill or rape or whatever and get to go to heaven regardless
B)Become a galactic serial rapist and force us to love him so that theres no point in a hell.
That would make life death so much simpler.

This is a bit of a straw man. I never said I oppose punishment for wrongdoing, or the removal of free well. I suppose I should have used bolding on the word "eternal". See, eternity is a long time. Far longer than anything we could ever do to deserve. Not even committing as many crimes as you could possibly cram in to a century would merit an eternity of torment. Now, a billion years, whatever. God can have high standards if he wants, and torture you for a millennia for every time you had indecent thoughts. I'd call him a bastard for such a standard, but at least it is a punishment in proportion to the crime. An eternity of hell is not in proportion to the crime; it exceeds proportionality no matter what calculus you use.

Imagine a judge presiding over two cases in one day. The first case is a war crime tribunal for a person who slaughtered villages of people in Rwanda. He gets the maximum penalty of life in solitary confinement. Then comes in a poor man who stole a loaf of bread to feed his family. He also gets life in solitary. Where is the justice in that? The two crimes are on a totally different scale, yet they earn exactly the same punishment.

Now imagine that "life" isn't the upper limit on prison sentences. Imagine that they have technology to keep you alive artificially for much longer than you would otherwise survive. And yet the father still gets the same punishment as the war criminal. Even when we increase the threshold of maximum punishment, the punishment for all offences is exactly the same. As much as the judge pretends to be the epitome of justice, his judgements have perverted it.

If god condemns people to an eternity of hell, then god is the most malevolent being in existence. And if the worst human ever to live gets the same punishment as the best human to fall short of grace, then he is most unjust as well.

[kalkiran]

i thought jesus paid for our sins?

[BluePriest]

This is a bit of a straw man. I never said I oppose punishment for wrongdoing, or the removal of free well. I suppose I should have used bolding on the word "eternal". See, eternity is a long time. Far longer than anything we could ever do to deserve. Not even committing as many crimes as you could possibly cram in to a century would merit an eternity of torment. Now, a billion years, whatever. God can have high standards if he wants, and torture you for a millennia for every time you had indecent thoughts. I'd call him a bastard for such a standard, but at least it is a punishment in proportion to the crime. An eternity of hell is not in proportion to the crime; it exceeds proportionality no matter what calculus you use.

Imagine a judge presiding over two cases in one day. The first case is a war crime tribunal for a person who slaughtered villages of people in Rwanda. He gets the maximum penalty of life in solitary confinement. Then comes in a poor man who stole a loaf of bread to feed his family. He also gets life in solitary. Where is the justice in that? The two crimes are on a totally different scale, yet they earn exactly the same punishment.

Now imagine that "life" isn't the upper limit on prison sentences. Imagine that they have technology to keep you alive artificially for much longer than you would otherwise survive. And yet the father still gets the same punishment as the war criminal. Even when we increase the threshold of maximum punishment, the punishment for all offences is exactly the same. As much as the judge pretends to be the epitome of justice, his judgements have perverted it.

If god condemns people to an eternity of hell, then god is the most malevolent being in existence. And if the worst human ever to live gets the same punishment as the best human to fall short of grace, then he is most unjust as well.

It is all about faith. That is all there is to it. God wants you to have faith. Thats what determines if you go to heaven or hell, not anything else. Once you see God, there is no more faith required. It now becomes fact. God wants you to live for him while you are here on earth and fulfill the great commission. That is why. You may think it is harsh, but the bible says it well.

Mark 3
23 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: “How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end.

There comes a certain point where you have to make your choice, otherwise you will just divide the kingdom of heaven.. You may call it harsh, Gods punishment. But the way I see it, it is on mine and every christians hand for not being a better example. That is why Im here because know what true love for God is, and that punishment is in the back of my mind, reminding me what will happen to my friends, my family, and my loved ones if I dont try something, anything. Im here because there is a purpose and a reason for it. I have to show Gods love everywhere I can, because of a care for the world. Im not in it to advance some type of theological government. The very idea is absurd, the choice is yours to make, not governments. Im not here for some type of self gain. I have no reason to stand here and talk to people I dont even know and say things like this. I could be FG farming, or anything like that. This is just one board out of the entire internet, and it seems insignificant to try to stand up in this one area, which has been branded predominantly atheists to try to make  a point for God. But thats what Im doing, because you mention Hell as if its some secret of the Christian world., when in reality, it really should be on the forefront of a lot of Christians minds because of the very reason you stated.  There should be a lot more here assisting instead of just playing religion all day which is just shameful. 

And I dont even like saying that, because at the same time, hell isnt what christians are suppose to be about. They are suppose to be showing a genuine love for God, and that reason shouldnt be Hell, it should be because of an understanding of who he is, and what he has done for us. When talking to a non-christian, I dont even like mentioning Hell because that should not be the reason for changing. There is only one good reason and that is out of love for God. 

So yes, it is a harsh sentence. Why do you think Im here?

[The Raven]

Ive all but left this section of the boards for one reason.  Every single topic that is made here, if not atheistic, is suddenly crowded with people saying that theres either no reason to believe in some type of God, or distorts said religion. So heres my question.

Why do you care what other people believe? If you dont believe the Jesus is the only way to heaven, why is it that instead of just saying you dont agree, you have to say why you shouldnt agree? Why invade a topic thats about a religion you dont care about, if you are only there to cause chaos?

To me personally, it shows that it is a matter of not wanting to believe, instead of truely not wondering.

You see, religion is not like believing in aliens.
Believing in aliens doesn't affect politics, doesn't start wars, doesn't create homophoby and sexism...

That's why some people hate religions.
It's not bad to believe in a theory, but it's utterly wrong to enforce it and its dogmas in the society.

[kalkiran]

ill agree with the other three in certain circumstances but wars mainly are started anyway, pope benedict (I think?????) would have still ordered the crusades if he was in any position of power regardless of religion.

[ratcharmer]

Allow me to present my own take on the "harsh punishment" debate.

Simply put, myself and others who believe like myself, do not believe hell is a place (loosely using the term "place") where God, or anyone/anything else is actively trying to punish people. Rather I see it as a place where God simply isn't doing anything at all.

Let me put it this way: God is throwing us all a party in the afterlife. God knows we'll really enjoy ourselves there and thinks it'd be great if we came. But he isn't going to force anyone to come, therefore each person has to decide if they want to come for themselves.

Those who don't go end up miserable, because they didn't realize just how much God was doing to help the world, but it becomes abundantly clear once they see a world where God isn't helping.

God, knowing that people who don't come will be unhappy, has asked those who've already RSVP'd to his party to try and convince others to come.

Simply put, God wants to make people happy in the afterlife, but he isn't going to force His presence where he isn't wanted.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now on a side note to The Raven: you'll find that it is actually quite thoroughly impossible to actually establish any sort of sound cause/effect relationship between religion and any of those things.

It's simply the nature of society that certain labels you can place on people will tend to cluster together. Relatively wealthy people tend to speak English, Liberals are more likely to be vegetarian, Conservatives are more likely to own a gun and people who live near the equator are more likely to like spicy food.

Yes, you can associate certain  religious sects with things that are generally negative: homophobia, violence, exploitation etc. You can also associate some religious sects with things that are generally viewed as positive, such as charities, pacifism and education.

To attempt to claim that since you can loosely associate certain religious groups with things that are detrimental to society then religion must be bad is roughly the equivalent of saying that since a statistically significant portion of the worlds wealthy speak English, the English language must be superior to all others and learning English will make you rich.

You may even be able to find circumstances under which learning English could help someone become rich, such as a Chinese businessman who can now work more effectively with American partners. But the underlying logic behind claiming English as a superior language is laughable at best.

On a closing note, I feel I should point out that when you say "its utterly wrong to enforce it and its dogmas in the society" you have, in fact, just attempted to enforce your own beliefs on whoever you are addressing.

[Innominate]

This is a bit of a straw man. I never said I oppose punishment for wrongdoing, or the removal of free well. I suppose I should have used bolding on the word "eternal". See, eternity is a long time. Far longer than anything we could ever do to deserve. Not even committing as many crimes as you could possibly cram in to a century would merit an eternity of torment. Now, a billion years, whatever. God can have high standards if he wants, and torture you for a millennia for every time you had indecent thoughts. I'd call him a bastard for such a standard, but at least it is a punishment in proportion to the crime. An eternity of hell is not in proportion to the crime; it exceeds proportionality no matter what calculus you use.

Imagine a judge presiding over two cases in one day. The first case is a war crime tribunal for a person who slaughtered villages of people in Rwanda. He gets the maximum penalty of life in solitary confinement. Then comes in a poor man who stole a loaf of bread to feed his family. He also gets life in solitary. Where is the justice in that? The two crimes are on a totally different scale, yet they earn exactly the same punishment.

Now imagine that "life" isn't the upper limit on prison sentences. Imagine that they have technology to keep you alive artificially for much longer than you would otherwise survive. And yet the father still gets the same punishment as the war criminal. Even when we increase the threshold of maximum punishment, the punishment for all offences is exactly the same. As much as the judge pretends to be the epitome of justice, his judgements have perverted it.

If god condemns people to an eternity of hell, then god is the most malevolent being in existence. And if the worst human ever to live gets the same punishment as the best human to fall short of grace, then he is most unjust as well.

It is all about faith. That is all there is to it. God wants you to have faith. Thats what determines if you go to heaven or hell, not anything else. Once you see God, there is no more faith required. It now becomes fact. God wants you to live for him while you are here on earth and fulfill the great commission. That is why. You may think it is harsh, but the bible says it well.

Mark 3
23 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: “How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end.

There comes a certain point where you have to make your choice, otherwise you will just divide the kingdom of heaven.. You may call it harsh, Gods punishment. [snip]

So yes, it is a harsh sentence. Why do you think Im here?

I have no desire to go to heaven or hell. An eternity of existence would to me be torture, no matter what circumstances I spent it in. For me, the kindest thing god could do would be to annihilate my soul when that time comes. If he needs to torture me for a finite duration, whatever.

But hey, I thank you for caring enough to try to set a good example and perhaps save me from it. I just find it impossible to believe that a god who would condemn even the blackest soul to eternal hell is just or good.

[johannhowitzer]

I have no desire to go to heaven or hell. An eternity of existence would to me be torture, no matter what circumstances I spent it in. For me, the kindest thing god could do would be to annihilate my soul when that time comes. If he needs to torture me for a finite duration, whatever.

Not me.  If I could write music for millions of years, learn every instrument known to man and invent some new ones of my own, get to know every person that's ever lived on a personal level, try every kind of food throughout history, I still wouldn't want to suddenly not exist.  Existing is fun!  Well, except on bad days.  But I don't have too many of those.

[Purity_Riot]

Existing IS

You can say you'd like to not exist, but you can't know that. You can't know you'd rather be nothing than be

[iampostal]

why do i care?Why does anybody care? First let me say i do not hate religious people just religions..
I CARE BECAUSE
1)history has shown and still shows today that whenever religion is put in any position of authority it abuses it.You get witch hunts, inquisitions, torture and dont say thats ancient history today saudi arabia still stones people to death and can arrest you for sorcery.
I CARE BECAUSE
2)there are 4800 or so religious sects on earth right now all claiming they know the one true path to salvation
I CARE BECAUSE
3)followers of any and all religions NEVER completely follow their holy books rules for example they want the ten commandmants visible in all schools yet love to watch football on sunday clearly violating "remember the sabbath day and keep it holy"by the way the penalty for this in the bible is death..so religious followers are LIARS when they say they do gods will..
I CARE BECAUSE
4)religion has and still tries to supress education and discovery...many countries still dont allow girls in school,people have been killed or tortured for showing others the truth...why?because the more humans learn about earth and the cosmos the less relevant and realistic religion becomes thus exposing their LIES
I CARE BECAUSE
5)religions allow people to believe the stupidest things and lose all abiilty to judge with common sense...examples half the world jewish population died in the holocaust yet they still believe in a kind compassionate god DUMB....Mormons adhere to a religion created by a man who 4 years earlier was in jail for FRAUD...DUMBER..i will gladly continue this but i know despite all the EVIDENCE and PROOF against religion believers just stay dimwitted walking towards their ever extinguishing light and for the record i dont disbelieve in a god i just believe its better to ask question then to pretend to have answers

[iampostal]

heres some more
I CARE BECAUSE
the belief that a cosmic jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he cna remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree is STUPID when you look at it with COMMON SENSE
I CARE BECAUSE
ALL evidence in this argument discovered in teh last 2000 years shows religion is wrong

[tyranim]

what ive been doing is trying to discourage anti religion/anti atheism threads. unfortunately, ive been unsuccessful. people just keep ripping on each other passive aggressively. which is getting annoying.