Why do you believe in god?

[drNovikov]

My friend, those extraordinary things have scientific explanation supported by tons of evidence. They become even more stunning when viewed from a natural point of view.

[RootRanger]

This is where the belief in a God or several gods come into play. In believing that there was a specific beginning to time, than something must have set it into motion. For people like me, that would be God. A God is a divine being that can ignore normal physics and theories.

You're arguing that there is a beginning of time, which is a support for the argument that there are a finite amount of universes, which is a support for the argument that abiogenesis is unlikely, which is a support for the argument that God created the universe. And your evidence for a beginning of time is that God created the universe.

I honestly can't say it was easy to notice, but your argument is circular.

You don't actually have any real evidence for God.

Good effort, nevertheless.

I have a personal mix of Catholicism and a firm belief in scientific studies. If the Big Bang Theory, among other things, is true, as I believe, then it can be reasonable to some that a God had set this is motion. I am a 5 on the original scale, because some of the Bible to me is sketchy.

It's possible that God created the universe, sure, but there isn't evidence for it. Given that there is a non-supernatural explanation, I don't see why the supernatural explanation should even be considered any further. And even if we could safely assume God created the universe, it's unlikely that he would be fit the descriptions of any gods of the common religions because these descriptions are all illogical.

As for Christianity, there are far too many incongruities. The bible, the only holy book of most versions of Christianity, blatantly lies and misleads people in numerous occurrences. Plus, God allows extreme misery to continue on the one planet he apparently cares about.

There are just far too many incongruities and lapses in evidence for me to follow any religion.

Woah woah woah. Believing in god and believing the bible is literal is 2 COMPLETELY different things. I'd say a 10 for believing in god, I am 100% sure he exists in my beliefs, but that does not mean I follow the bible 100%

100%? You seriously think it is absolutely impossible for God not to exist, despite the lack of evidence for him? There is really no way whatsoever that God doesn't exist?

I believe in god because i dont thing so many random things happened that life existed, that humans existed. There are so many fascinating things, I dont think it existed by its own. Im a muslim btw, and I believe 10/10.

Uh, yeah, I've already covered this with my infinite universes argument.

[Skotadi Phobos]

What are these blatant lies in the bible may I ask? And also, what are we as a race doing to encourage God to make the world a perfect place?

[RootRanger]

What are these blatant lies in the bible may I ask?

Ok, sure. I'm just going to go through the first two chapters in Genesis and point out a couple of the mistakes.

1    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
No, not at all. There is solid evidence for the Big Bang. God didn't just put everything into place. The universe has actually been expanding for pretty much its entire existence.

4    And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Darkness is already the absence of light. They're already divided.

5    And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
So, God made these names, and humans also just happened to pick the same names as well? What are the odds?

16    And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17    And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth
Well, Sunlight and Moonlight are from the same source: the sun. They aren't separate lights; they're just from separate locations. And if the purpose of the stars is to give light to the earth, why are there millions of stars that we can't see unless we use telescopes (an invention that came long after the Bible was written). Also, "firmament" is a misleading word, given that the stars are anything but "firm" and stiff in place.

20    ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21    And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
This is pretty much ignoring evolution entirely. Not only did species evolve at different time periods, but the bible is completely missing out on the fact that small, simple life forms came long before whales.

26    ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, 1 Cor. 11.7 after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So, man was made in God's image, even though man commits atrocious evils? Actually, nevermind, I forgot that God also commits atrocious evils. So, I guess this part of the bible makes sense.

31    And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
God created everything in 6 days? Science says that number is closer to 14 billion years. So, I guess God was only wrong by roughly 14 billion years. Even if 1 day = ~2 billion years (because apparently we can just redefine words like that) the proportions are horribly wrong.

2    And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. Heb. 4.4, 10
He is capable of creating an entire universe in 6 days, but he needs to take a day to chill on the 7th. Um...ok, yeah, I can go with that I guess.

7    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 1 Cor. 15.45
Dust. We're made of dust. Even though life and dust have completely different chemical compositions, we're really all just dust. Not to mention the lack of evidence for a soul.

17    but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Why would God make a tree just so man would have to avoid it. Does he just like screwing with people, or what? Also, I think it's kind of funny that the tree of knowledge is what you should avoid. It fits with religion oh so well.

19    And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Different languages have different names for each animal.

21    And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof.
22    And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
God can create an entire universe in merely 6 days, but he can only create more than one human if he uses the first human's magical human-generating ribcage?

23    And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, 1 because she was taken out of Man. 2
Except in other languages, the word for "woman" does not have the word for "man" in it.


So, yeah. In just 2 chapters out of 50 in 1 book out of a few dozen, I've found all these ridiculous mistakes. The bible is a horrible, completely horrible source.

And also, what are we as a race doing to encourage God to make the world a perfect place?

Um, if God is capable of creating an entire universe, it shouldn't be too difficult to ease up on the thousands of starving children in Africa. Or at least make it obvious that he exists and clearly define his teachings, to lower the casualties due to religious wars.

[Naesala]

I did not comment on this thread to debate my beliefs. I did not even comment to answer the question proposed. I commented to point out belief in God and belief that the bible is literal is two different things. Your most recent post on Genesis (though I didn't read the whole thing through) is also based in that the bible is literal. I do not think this.

I will say that my comment was worded wonky. I believe in god, 100%, because I don't think "partial belief" is worth much in the scheme of religion. I also believe other people have other beliefs and convincing arguments. I have life experiences that have convinced me towards gods existence. Through an expansion I made on Pascal's wager, upbringing (a poor source, yes), and research I reached the conclusion that christian god is the true god. I also don't believe there has to be evidence of god for there to be god, the "evidence denies faith and without faith i am nothing" argument.

I'm not going to argue my beliefs further on this thread, especially not if I'm going to be called delusional and borderline insane. Being insulting/engaging in hyperbole is not the way to have a fair debate.

[drNovikov]

Um, if God is capable of creating an entire universe, it shouldn't be too difficult to ease up on the thousands of starving children in Africa.

Probably, you know this great inspiring site: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

[RootRanger]

I believe in god, 100%, because I don't think "partial belief" is worth much in the scheme of religion.

You believe that God wants you to believe in God 100%; therefore, you believe in God 100%.

I also believe other people have other beliefs and convincing arguments. I have life experiences that have convinced me towards gods existence. Through an expansion I made on Pascal's wager, upbringing (a poor source, yes), and research I reached the conclusion that christian god is the true god. I also don't believe there has to be evidence of god for there to be god, the "evidence denies faith and without faith i am nothing" argument.

I'm not going to argue my beliefs further on this thread, especially not if I'm going to be called delusional and borderline insane. Being insulting/engaging in hyperbole is not the way to have a fair debate.

I myself am 100% sure that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the one and only true God. I am 100% sure of this because of my own research, except I'm not going to explain it to you. Also, my belief doesn't need any evidence, because if I think logically and actually use evidence, then I am a worthless human being. Anyone that tries to disprove this claim is worthless themselves because they are not practicing faith.

...

And you think I'm the one making the insults.

BTW, it wasn't hyperbole.

[Naesala]

I believe in god, 100%, because I don't think "partial belief" is worth much in the scheme of religion.

You believe that God wants you to believe in God 100%; therefore, you believe in God 100%. You've made yourself extremely close minded based on a conjecture. Nice work.

I also believe other people have other beliefs and convincing arguments. I have life experiences that have convinced me towards gods existence. Through an expansion I made on Pascal's wager, upbringing (a poor source, yes), and research I reached the conclusion that christian god is the true god. I also don't believe there has to be evidence of god for there to be god, the "evidence denies faith and without faith i am nothing" argument.

I'm not going to argue my beliefs further on this thread, especially not if I'm going to be called delusional and borderline insane. Being insulting/engaging in hyperbole is not the way to have a fair debate.

I myself am 100% sure that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the one and only true God. I am 100% sure of this because of my own research, except I'm not going to explain it to you. Also, my belief doesn't need any evidence, because if I think logically and actually use evidence, then I am a worthless human being. Anyone that tries to disprove this claim is worthless themselves because they are not practicing faith. And even though I'm 100% sure in my beliefs, I'm insecure enough to avoid any confrontation about them.

...

And you think I'm the one making the insults.

BTW, it wasn't hyperbole. It is literally insane to think you can be 100% sure about the existence of a God.

I'm not trying to convert you. I didnt say I was ignoring logic and evidence; I infact told you I've done my own research. I neither said I, nor anyone else was a worthless human being. I said I'm not going to explain because I don't want to talk about my beliefs. You are reacting to things that aren't being said by me, and being incredibly insulting. Putting words in my mouth and then claiming I'm being insulting is just being even worse.

[whatifidogetcaught?]

You believe that God wants you to believe in God 100%; therefore, you believe in God 100%. You've made yourself extremely close minded based on a conjecture. Nice work.

That's people. People believe in things. It is pointless to argue on such a topic. You can change people's minds, but that's because they didn't really believe anyway. Don't just insult someone based on what they believe.

[RootRanger]

I'm not trying to convert you. I didnt say I was ignoring logic and evidence; I infact told you I've done my own research.

Of course, except you're not going to debate this research. I can't disprove that your research exists, there just isn't yet any evidence for it.

I neither said I, nor anyone else was a worthless human being.

"without faith i am nothing"
Ok yes, technically you didn't use the word "worthless." I replaced "nothing" with "worthless" because it was grammatically correct to use an adjective in this case. You can switch "worthless" with "nothing" and it won't change what I've said.

You are reacting to things that aren't being said by me, and being incredibly insulting. Putting words in my mouth and then claiming I'm being insulting is just being even worse.

You are stating your belief as if it is the only possible truth and then refusing to justify it, and to add insult to injury, you're writing this in a thread that is entirely about why people justify beliefs exactly like yours. That is an insult to logic and reason, the tools used for accomplishing anything meaningful.

Evidence can be found below, ironically in the same post.

I said I'm not going to explain because I don't want to talk about my beliefs.

It is people like you, Naesala, who hold back scientific advancement. People who feel 100% sure about their opinions even when evidence is presented against them and then refuse to justify their ridiculous beliefs even though they claim they are capable of it, they just don't want to.

[Naesala]

"without faith i am nothing"
Ok yes, technically you didn't use the word "worthless." I replaced "nothing" with "worthless" because it was grammatically correct to use an adjective in this case. You can switch "worthless" with "nothing" and it won't change what I've said.

You are reacting to things that aren't being said by me, and being incredibly insulting. Putting words in my mouth and then claiming I'm being insulting is just being even worse.

You are stating your belief as if it is the only possible truth and then refusing to justify it, and to add insult to injury, you're writing this in a thread that is entirely about why people justify beliefs exactly like yours. That is an insult to logic and reason, the tools used for accomplishing anything meaningful.

Evidence can be found below, ironically in the same post.

I said I'm not going to explain because I don't want to talk about my beliefs.

It is people like you, Naesala, who hold back scientific advancement. People who feel 100% sure about their opinions even when evidence is presented against them and then refuse to justify their ridiculous beliefs even though they claim they are capable of it, they just don't want to.

I am not saying I am nothing. The "knowledge denies faith and without faith i am nothing" Is not talking about me, its talking about God, without faith god is nothing. I'm sorry you misinterpreted what I said. I did not say mine is the only truth, I said mine is the only truth for me. I respect all people viewpoints, even atheists. Once again, Im not trying to convert anyone.

You make a broad claim of people like me, when i have given you nothing. You're fighting an argument that isn't here.

[Xenocidius]

Yeah, this thread is getting very out of hand. There is really no reason for all the personal insults flying around.

That said, I'll add my own two cents.

It's not an infinite amount of time though, I'm not sure on the specifics but I think they say life formed about 5 billion years ago or something, and that amount of time matched with the odds of the right chemicals coming together and forming the right proteins and such to make a life form just doesn't work for me. Sorry if the time is dead wrong, I don't feel a need pay attention to those in school.

It's quite likely that there was a universe before this one. An infinite number of universes over an infinite amount of time, really. In order for the amount of time to be finite, not only this has to be the only universe to ever exist, but its creation must have been a finite amount of time ago. The latter is pretty much confirmed by science, but the former is the problem. If there has only ever been one universe, and it has a finite lifespan, then there was an infinite amount of time before its creation. Why would it take an infinite amount of time for a universe to be created? How can something that is possible only happen once over an infinite amount of time?

I've never heard of the idea of a universe before this one. If indeed there were infinite universes before this one, then your point about life is fairly solid. However, this point is flawed:

If there has only ever been one universe, and it has a finite lifespan, then there was an infinite amount of time before its creation.

The way we understand it, the concept of time only began with the universe. The start of the universe also marks the 'start' of time. There was no 'before' the Big Bang and no 'before' creation. I like to think of this as an asymptote at the beginning of the universe; if you were to travel back in time, you could never actually reach the start of time, nor the start of the universe, only approach it. This fits in with the fact that we can't actually know what happened at the Big Bang singularity, and how laws of physics sort of fall apart at that moment.

However, the many-worlds interpretation still works even with that. It's similar to your infinite universes idea, except that it involves all possible realities after the single Big Bang unfolding alongside our own, and as time goes on, more and more branches are created and thus more universes are created. With this also, it is guaranteed that life will have evolved in some of the universes, because it's an element of at least one possible reality (as shown by the fact that it is present in our own reality).

But what if this really is the only history, the only reality, the only 'universe'?

Well, the universe is big enough that it's probably still extremely likely for life to evolve at least somewhere in the universe due to the immense size of even our single universe (which may or may not be infinite in volume). So likely, in fact, that the idea that there is life on other planets is a common idea in science and popular culture. Until we know just how improbable life really is though, it seems silly to believe in God just because life is too unlikely.

All that said, I find the existence of God to be obsolete, given so many other explanations for the workings of the universe, so I'm also an atheist/agnostic. And even if God does exist, the Christian God (or any of the gods of the common religions) seems extremely far-fetched, particularly when you add Jesus to the mix. I'd personally like to hear some viewpoints on why people believe in Jesus as the son of God.

Hopefully I didn't stir things up too much. Keep it civil!