*Author

Offline Kuu

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 112
  • Reputation Power: 0
  • Kuu is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • New to Elements
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg246483#msg246483
« Reply #228 on: January 13, 2011, 07:03:18 am »
Quote
Regardless, I prefer logic. I only have faith in science because I must; if I don't, I probably would have went insane and committed suicide. The point is, in my personal opinion religions are not logical enough for my tastes, which is why I don't believe in them.

I don't want to argue about this any longer. I try to give simple reasons for why I like and dislike certain things, but you can't blame me if you find holes in these reasons.
Alright, then I will not bother you about your reasons anymore.

Quote
You seemed to be asking us to prove that God doesn't exist, since you say the absence of proof isn't good enough. Which is why we said the burden of proof is on you, not us.
Alright, sorry for not making my question more clear. It was just a misunderstanding, but I felt as though you guys were being rather harsh.

FlarePod

  • Guest
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg251125#msg251125
« Reply #229 on: January 18, 2011, 03:49:58 pm »
Im sure everyone wants to be reincarnated, have a sweet dream of eternity. Who wouldnt want that?
Me my myself try to believe in something as wonderful as that. Though i dont believe in god, i still want to believe in this. As mentioned several times in this topic, sadly the proofs of it not existing, is much more likeble than it existing.
I think the best thing for you to do, is just forget it. Forget about death.
Its rather easy actually. Just have a good time with friends or family.
Dont let the mystery of death hinder you movement in life. We will all die. We all happen to have the same fate.
Its not unfair, and its going to happen. Nothing can stop it.

The birth of regions was made for people to feel alive. To feel that they ahd a purpose.
We are all living beings who swarm around the planet, looking for answers and somewhat of an explination of what life is, buit the truth is we will never find out.
This sounds depressing. But would you really like to find out if there was life after death?
What is someone tells you. What if he says no? Then you wouldnt live happily?
Believe in god, dont listen to others. But either way, whoever has right or wrong.

It wont make a difrence.


QuantumT

  • Guest
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg251707#msg251707
« Reply #230 on: January 19, 2011, 05:21:13 am »
Im sure everyone wants to be reincarnated, have a sweet dream of eternity. Who wouldnt want that?
Me my myself try to believe in something as wonderful as that. Though i dont believe in god, i still want to believe in this. As mentioned several times in this topic, sadly the proofs of it not existing, is much more likeble than it existing.
I think the best thing for you to do, is just forget it. Forget about death.
Its rather easy actually. Just have a good time with friends or family.
Dont let the mystery of death hinder you movement in life. We will all die. We all happen to have the same fate.
Its not unfair, and its going to happen. Nothing can stop it.
Just because you want something to be true isn't sound reason for believing it. For instance, kids might be happier to go through their whole lives thinking Santa Claus is real, or that their security blanket has magical protective powers, or whatever. Eventually though, we expect them to give these things up. It's part of growing up.

I do agree with not letting fear of death ruin your life though.

Quote
The birth of regions was made for people to feel alive. To feel that they ahd a purpose.
I'd like to think I'm capable of finding my purpose better than some old guys 2000 years ago.

Quote
We are all living beings who swarm around the planet, looking for answers and somewhat of an explination of what life is, buit the truth is we will never find out.
This sounds depressing.
I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that we'll never figure it out.
Quote
But would you really like to find out if there was life after death?
Sure, just like I'd like to find out that I'm a millionaire tomorrow. But wishing for it won't make it so.
Alright, sorry for not making my question more clear. It was just a misunderstanding, but I felt as though you guys were being rather harsh.
Sorry, I suppose I read something into your question that was there.

Basically what I said above, and what Bloodshadow said about faith. The whole idea of faith kind of bothers me.

Offline doublecross

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 750
  • Reputation Power: 9
  • doublecross is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Did you miss me?
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg253012#msg253012
« Reply #231 on: January 21, 2011, 02:24:16 am »
To get back to the original point of why would one willingly choose not to believe that one will continue to exist after death, my reason is complex, and, honestly, I am not sure I could know my own reason entirely without some serious meditation (I meditate every night, but often not on this), but I can break it into several parts.
1)If you look at my signature and under picture text, you will notice the phrase "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be". This is what I live by. Even if a belief in an afterlife would possibly be comforting, I really do not believe it is true. The science doesn't support it, and no one has shown me any proof that it does.
2)I feel that if you think the life you are given is all you get, then you are more likely to live life in a fulfilling way. I am the happiest person I know.
3)Assuming that there is a religion that is correct, then statistically it is either Christianity or Islam that is correct. As someone who is Atheist, but also Jewish (you can ask me to explain that later) then if there is an afterlife, I am going to hell. I find my days go much better if not worrying about eternal damnation. However, I also realized that, if hell exists, it will be full of fun people... like scientists and musicians.
4)I do have beliefs that can take the place of the supposedly comforting belief in the afterlife. There are 2 things I believe in strongly, that do the job nicely.
      a)"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" When living my life, I try to avoid joining teams. I do not support factions; I support the truth.
      b)"That which has existed, always will have existed"   I do not need to believe the unprovable statement that people will continue to exist after their physical form is gone, because I have a logically unarguable statement that I find just as comforting. Every event that has happened, always will have happened. No one can argue that.
Everything that existed, will always have existed.
It does not matter if there is no record of it, It does not matter if no one remembers it, it does not even matter that there are no traces of it left; It existed. It happened.



One day, when the universe has either succumbed to Entropy (as this forum has) and gone into heat death, or given into Gravity and re-collapsed into a singularity, and the universe is completely unrecognizable, with nothing even remotely resembling our current world still in existence, our world still WILL HAVE EXISTED. Nothing can take that away, and it is logical fact.

I know it may sound like I believe in a different kind of afterlife, and you can call it that if you really wish. But I believe that would reflect a mis-representation of what I think. I am not claiming there is some kind of celestial book that contains the History of the Universe. Nothing like that. Just the simple logical fact that the past happened. Even if time can be re-written, such that the events really never happened, then, one level up, it will still be history that it happened and then got erased. (People who have read GEB will likely know what I mean by one level up).
 

This is what I cling to instead of an afterlife; I cling to the logical fact that, while people, events, objects, etc. can be erased, nothing can change the fact that they existed. I don't think they continue to exist in some form, but I KNOW that nothing can change the fact that they were a part of this world.

I cling to the truth, and I cling to the the fact that everything that has happened, always will have happened.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. Speak the truth even when your voice falters.

Offline doublecross

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 750
  • Reputation Power: 9
  • doublecross is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Did you miss me?
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg254840#msg254840
« Reply #232 on: January 23, 2011, 03:13:15 am »
I am willing to bet there are people who disagree with me, and I would love to hear from them?
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. Speak the truth even when your voice falters.

Sir Rebrl

  • Guest
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg257374#msg257374
« Reply #233 on: January 26, 2011, 12:33:26 am »
1) The possibility of an afterlife is not destroyed by truth, and I doubt it ever will be. Equally, the possibility that we die and are gone will probably never be destroyed by truth. The evidence seems to point to a lack of a beyond, but that can be shrugged off with the statement "Science just can't measure the part of us that moves on," or some other similar thing. It really just comes down to having faith in the apparent direction of science or faith in something invisible to science. Faith either way. =P

2) I believe that we come to this world with intention - with a plan. We forget what that is when we come here, as we forget everything before, but when we're done here we will remember and we will know if we accomplished it. I believe that we find our plan again as we find what in this life brings us unparalleled joy. I believe it's not pleasant to discover we wasted our time or failed miserably in our intentions (this discovery is what I believe Hell to be). This gives me motivation to do my best in this life for the sake of the beyond.
Point of this - I can't argue that believing this is -it- doesn't help one live a fulfilling life. I can't argue that "Just be good and you get eternal heaven," doesn't make some people lazy and boring. I can say that there are beliefs involving an afterlife that are just as motivating as "this is all there is."

3) I'ma stick with my briefly stated belief on Hell, and expand to say the only Hell is the one we make for ourselves both in this life and in the potential beyond, and also that not everything in -any- religion should be taken literally.

4) That's cool.
  a) That's awesome.
  b) If that's what floats your boat, awesome.
I will say on this point that if it were possible to remove something or someone from existence completely, I'm pretty sure minute changes at the very least would ripple out from there over time. Thus, there are always traces left, even if not necessarily to the unknowing or untrained eye.

Overall, your beliefs are pretty solid and I have no urge to mess with them. I figure if I'm right, and I'm pretty sure I am (else I'd believe something else), you're not going to Hell. Enjoying life and not going to Hell is what counts, right? Right. Doesn't really matter what you believe while your here as long as it works for you.

Offline doublecross

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 750
  • Reputation Power: 9
  • doublecross is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Did you miss me?
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg257380#msg257380
« Reply #234 on: January 26, 2011, 12:40:34 am »
I am going to echo your tone of "If that's what you believe, cool". However, I do have some questions, and you seem like one of the most reasonable people I have heard from who also believe in an afterlife. (I am not saying it is hard to be reasonable and believe in an afterlife, but I am saying I have yet to meet someone who does both, in real life so far)


Do you believe there is a part of the world that exists outside science?

Your statement seems awfully like dualism, where there is believed to be a physical brain that is governed by science, and a separate spiritual mind that has no physical form, and isn't bound by science.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. Speak the truth even when your voice falters.

Wynden

  • Guest
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg257393#msg257393
« Reply #235 on: January 26, 2011, 12:52:47 am »
Quote
The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. - Eric Hoffer
Personally, I'm more the gentle cynic when it comes to atheism. I won't accept a deity 'just because', and I find that there is some truth in all religions. I think that each and every person must learn to set aside their differences, and accept people for who they are and what they believe.

Sir Rebrl

  • Guest
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg257395#msg257395
« Reply #236 on: January 26, 2011, 12:56:39 am »
(I am not saying it is hard to be reasonable and believe in an afterlife, but I am saying I have yet to meet someone who does both, in real life so far)
We're a rare breed.

Do you believe there is a part of the world that exists outside science?

Your statement seems awfully like dualism, where there is believed to be a physical brain that is governed by science, and a separate spiritual mind that has no physical form, and isn't bound by science.
Yes and no. It's complicated. My beliefs are in a generally constant state of flux (a few key things are solid), and right now I'm leaning towards this:
Matter is energy reduced to a slow vibration. The energy we perceive (like light or fire) is another form of energy reduced to a slow vibration... or something. I'm not sure I have the right function. Working on it. Regardless, I believe the higher form of energy is what constitutes our consciousnesses.

It could potentially be bound by science of a sort, but not by any science we know. Kinda like how quantum mechanics can't be predicted by Newtonian physics. As is, it can't be seen but everything's made of it deep down.

Everything I didn't preface somehow with some form of the word "believe" should be considered so prefaced.
a
Personally, I'm more the gentle cynic when it comes to atheism. I won't accept a deity 'just because', and I find that there is some truth in all religions. I think that each and every person must learn to set aside their differences, and accept people for who they are and what they believe.
I like people like you. I was exactly like that before I found my personal beliefs, and I completely support anybody who thinks that way staying atheist/agnostic until such a time as personal experience makes them want to change, should that time come.

Offline doublecross

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 750
  • Reputation Power: 9
  • doublecross is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Did you miss me?
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg257398#msg257398
« Reply #237 on: January 26, 2011, 12:59:50 am »
I think that religion is a meme, and exists in its current form, not because it represents any truth, but because it was a successful idea.

It is capable of causing its own spread, and supporting itself in many ways.

Imagine a sentence "Tell this sentence to other people"
This will do only slightly well at spreading, for it has no incentive.

Now, imagine a sentence "Tell this sentence to other people, or you will have an eternity of misery"
This is now essentially a chain letter, which have been proven to be very persistent.

Now, imagine a sentence "Tell this sentence to other people, or you will have an eternity of misery. If you do pass it on, you are part of a moral elite that will one day rule the world. It is the right thing to do"
Now, this will be better at spreading itself.


Now, imagine that this sentence goes on to add parts about how this sentence is a divine truth, and add for the establishment of buildings and social organizations devoted to spreading this idea. Imagine this idea gets written into book form. Imagine this idea evolving to the point where it has a devoted following, where people are willing to donate massive amounts of time and money into the spreading of this idea.

Wars are fought because of this idea.


Sound like religion?

I could do a much more elaborate version of this, but I think this is not the setting.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. Speak the truth even when your voice falters.

 

anything
blarg: