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Offline DemagogTopic starter

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67601#msg67601
« Reply #84 on: May 12, 2010, 04:31:10 pm »
What? Contradicting much? How can someone be perfect yet created from sin? Regardless of the things that happened next, you said right there, Lucifer was perfect. Then he became not perfect. Perfect things aren't supposed to be able to be corrupted, hence why they are perfect.
Just because something is perfect, doesn't mean it cannot fall from perfection.  Perfection (in God's eyes) is the absence of sin.  The temptation for Lucifer to be like God was not the sin, and had he resisted the temptation he would still be perfect.  Same thing with Adam and Eve, according to the Bible.  They were perfect until they gave in to temptation and sinned.
Is God perfect?  the Egyptians, Caananites, and all the poor innocent babies drowned in the flood might think he is a bit harsh & maybe just a tiny bit unfair, don't you think?
Whoever said it's for people to decide what is fair an unfair, just and unjust? What is good and evil? Does the nature of a god matter, or is it only important that they exist?

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67604#msg67604
« Reply #85 on: May 12, 2010, 04:35:47 pm »
Why Atheism?

Humans like to be right. They like to be in charge. They like to have their puny little world in order.

Two responses to those demands are:

 Religion + Atheism

Both provide a belief system upon which the human can found his identity. Defending/ Promoting this belief-system against outsiders provides an excellent opportunity to be right.
Both provide or imply a variety of "commandments" that empower the human to be in charge.
Both describe a world-order in which the human can position himself and thus doesn't have to fear insecurity.

Also, both represent an irrational choice because neither the existence nor the non-existence of a divine being can be proven.
Is rationality important here? I don't think so, unless of course the respective human simply wishes to come back on his fundamental needs to be right, in charge and orderly.
For the true religious/atheist believer, simply living ones faith outside of a domain of reason should be the only way to go, since faith does indeed require no proof.*

If people from both camps were to take their "reasonable" stance more seriously, for most of them the question would arise:

Why not agnosticism?




* "no reason" does not imply that consequent actions shouldn't be within reasonable judicious range.
And what are the commandments of atheism. I have never heard of such things. Atheism is a stance on religious beliefs, it is not a religion itself.

I don't think agnosticism is a good stance, since there is no reason to assume that god would exist, there is no reason to prove anything.

Agnosticism on what caused the mass extinction of dinosaurs would be reasonable. But agnosticism about tooth fairy would just be stupid.

That's an extremely low value on life, in my opinion. I don't see how eighty years could be seen as "enough." How could a person ever want their consciousness to end? All of their memories disappear, no more experiences, no thoughts, no time, no anything, for eternity. Even if you live a million years, it's no different than only living eighty. In the end, it's basically like your life never happened. If there is nothing else, the universe is cruel for allowing the existence of life only to erase it.
Low value? No, I think that is exactly what makes life, or the time we spend living, so precious. It's not really about wanting, it's about accepting what seems to be the reality. And surely you cannot say that the lives of people who lived before us didn't happen. Even if we don't remember them anymore they played their part and it's safe to say that doing so they made our lives possible. There will also, hopefully, be lots of future generations to experience life.

I suppose being dead is a lot like what we experience before we a born. Is it really that scary? 

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67609#msg67609
« Reply #86 on: May 12, 2010, 04:48:02 pm »
Does the nature of a god matter, or is it only important that they exist?
Yes the nature of a God would matter if they existed.  Why worship a God that just wants to be mean and petty towards its followers (no specific God intended).

If I had a choice of Gods to worship, I'd choose the one most beneficial to me.  unfortunately, all these Gods these days keep telling me that I have no choice, and if I follow the other God I shall pay for eternity... but what if the one I choose is the wrong one, they all sound so plausible and they each have millions of followers convinced their's is the 'right' choice?!!

What happened, when I could spend the morning piously worshiping Zeus, and the afternoon slobbering up in the temple of Venus... oh I miss the good old days.



Offline Jangoo

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67625#msg67625
« Reply #87 on: May 12, 2010, 05:21:08 pm »
Lol, jangoo... agnoticism is a very profound, and deeply soothing choice.

Agnosticism - there is no god as far as I can see, however I like to keep an open mind and accept that the realms of scientific endevour are not far enough established to prove or disprove the existence of a divine being.  Sounds appealing?

Then again, a rational mind would wonder further, where did God come from?  Why am I debating the existance of God?  What exactly IS God?  Uh-oh... the can is open, I can't make the leap of faith, I'm a non-believer, I have doubts... I've tasted from the tree of knowledge and been thrown out of the garden of eden.

Why would God exist?
Exactly Artois, the true agnostic can be a philosopher and an ethic human being to the full extent without having to get all worked up about "facts of existance". Agnosticism is not only profound and soothing, it's also humble as long as it's not confused with the ignorance of "not caring" or the cowardness of "not wanting to care".


And what are the commandments of atheism. I have never heard of such things. Atheism is a stance on religious beliefs, it is not a religion itself.

I don't think agnosticism is a good stance, since [if ??] there is no reason to assume that god would exist, there is no reason to prove anything.

Agnosticism on what caused the mass extinction of dinosaurs would be reasonable. But agnosticism about tooth fairy would just be stupid.
I am a little confused here concerning the last two passages: On which side are you originally on?

As for the "commandments", I may have stretched the term a little too far when applying it to Atheism.
However, my point is that Atheism is just as irrational and "faithful" as Theism. Both sides are the infinite legs of a parabola (with agnosticism being the apex on the bottom).
As an antagonism to theistic, religious belief, Atheism makes several very strong statements about the human being, it's place, abilities and duties. Just like the religious belief and its implications for leading your life cannot be seen apart from the actual "religious lifestyle", neither can the atheistic belief be seperated from the life atheistic people lead. The result is a variety of "life-styling-commandments" if you want, commandments which are founded on the substitute belief system, atheistic people choose for themselves. The ten commandments are indeed nothing more than guidelines on how to lead your life while hardly touching "academic" issues.
This may seem a bit confusing or even far-fetched, but a couple blunt illustrations may help explain what I mean:


1. If there is no god that could be the true source of power and definition in my life, I am.

2. Social relations are my only way to be a part of things. Without society I am nothing.

3. Democracy is the rule of society. Therefore, the authority of society, law and ethic conduct is ultimately defined by me. If I wish to challenge the system I may do so.

4. Theistic belief systems are irrational and cause a lot of mayhem. Therefore secular reason shall be my guideline.

5. The most reliable source of insight and progress is science. Rational reasoning and scientific method cannot truly fail if applied correctly.

6. If I am dead-sick, only doctors can save me. I shall see to be well insured.

7. My life is limited. Therefore I must make the best of it and accomplish myself to the fullest.

.
.
.

As I said, a bit blunt but maybe you get what I mean?
It's about the individual human becoming the center of definition and the consequences of forging ones own life without divine assistance.



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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67635#msg67635
« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2010, 05:38:00 pm »
In my humble experience, agnosticism is a great leap forward...

...on the path to aetheist enlightenment  :o

Offline Jangoo

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67691#msg67691
« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2010, 06:58:29 pm »

In my humble experience, agnosticism is a great leap forward...

...on the path to aetheist enlightenment  :o
Lol. Funny how life-courses differ:

For me it was a great leap forward too - away from atheist arrogance towards an omi-spiritual worldview. 

You can ride a road both ways I suppose.  :D

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67707#msg67707
« Reply #90 on: May 12, 2010, 07:19:27 pm »
In my humble experience, agnosticism is a great leap forward...

...on the path to aetheist enlightenment  :o
Lol. Funny how life-courses differ:

For me it was a great leap forward too - away from atheist arrogance towards an omi-spiritual worldview. 

You can ride a road both ways I suppose.  :D
People really love to generalize. Atheist arrogance towards an omni-spiritual worldview? You need better atheist friends then as most of the arrogant people I have met were religious, not to say I haven't met my fair share of arrogant atheists.
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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67711#msg67711
« Reply #91 on: May 12, 2010, 07:26:21 pm »
Wtf is an omi-spiritual worldview?  ???

airframe

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67725#msg67725
« Reply #92 on: May 12, 2010, 07:46:14 pm »
Agnosticism - there is no god as far as I can see, however I like to keep an open mind and accept that the realms of scientific endevour are not far enough established to prove or disprove the existence of a divine being.
Exactly Artois, the true agnostic can be a philosopher and an ethic human being to the full extent without having to get all worked up about "facts of existance". Agnosticism is not only profound and soothing, it's also humble as long as it's not confused with the ignorance of "not caring" or the cowardness of "not wanting to care".
I'm assuming were discussing agnosticism as Artois stated. That does seem a good way of putting it.

Agnosticism on what caused the mass extinction of dinosaurs would be reasonable. But agnosticism about tooth fairy would just be stupid.
I am a little confused here concerning the last two passages: On which side are you originally on?

As for the "commandments", I may have stretched the term a little too far when applying it to Atheism.
However, my point is that Atheism is just as irrational and "faithful" as Theism. Both sides are the infinite legs of a parabola (with agnosticism being the apex on the bottom).
As an antagonism to theistic, religious belief, Atheism makes several very strong statements about the human being, it's place, abilities and duties. Just like the religious belief and its implications for leading your life cannot be seen apart from the actual "religious lifestyle", neither can the atheistic belief be seperated from the life atheistic people lead. The result is a variety of "life-styling-commandments" if you want, commandments which are founded on the substitute belief system, atheistic people choose for themselves. The ten commandments are indeed nothing more than guidelines on how to lead your life while hardly touching "academic" issues.
This may seem a bit confusing or even far-fetched, but a couple blunt illustrations may help explain what I mean:

.
.
.

As I said, a bit blunt but maybe you get what I mean?
It's about the individual human becoming the center of definition and the consequences of forging ones own life without divine assistance.
Okay, if there is a reason to assume that there could be a god, agnosticism could be a rational stance. But unless that reason is provided, I don't agree with you. As far I can see there is no reason to assume anything like a god could exist so there is no reason to prove anything one way or the other. I think it would be a fools errand (figure of speech?) and waste of resources to try to prove something there is no reason to prove. For example, are you agnostic on whether Harry Potter exist or not and just waiting for for science to prove his existence one way or the other. There are even several books about him. Would not seem very rational to me.

I don't think atheism is a belief equal to faith in god(s) and you seem to be drawing a comparison between the two. Also you're implying that atheists have organisations comparable to congregations which have agreed on some sets of rules. I haven't heard of such. Maybe in America? In there people could have a need for such things.

I understand that ten commandments are sort of guidelines. Well, if you believe in god there is actually a punishment for breaking them waiting for you so they are meant to be a bit more then mere guidelines.
But I'm not sure why there would be a need to have such rules set in stone, religious or not. There are things like laws and we've had them for a very long time. I'm not sure what you're going for there.

Offline Kamietsu

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67727#msg67727
« Reply #93 on: May 12, 2010, 07:50:07 pm »
Wtf is an omi-spiritual worldview?  ???
omi? no clue, I believe he meant omni-spiritual.
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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67731#msg67731
« Reply #94 on: May 12, 2010, 07:59:23 pm »
Wtf is an omi-spiritual worldview?  ???
omi? no clue, I believe he meant omni-spiritual.
I'm still lost... whats an omni-spiritual worldview? 

I don't know whether to agree or disagree... I've been befuddled  :-\

Offline Kamietsu

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67782#msg67782
« Reply #95 on: May 12, 2010, 09:28:29 pm »
Wtf is an omi-spiritual worldview?  ???
omi? no clue, I believe he meant omni-spiritual.
I'm still lost... whats an omni-spiritual worldview? 

I don't know whether to agree or disagree... I've been befuddled  :-\
Omni-spiritual, that means all spiritual. Omni-spiritual worldview is basically a religious worldview, you view the world in it's entirety as religious, based on religion, like any religious believer would view the world.
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blarg: