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Artois

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67280#msg67280
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2010, 11:26:24 pm »
Almost all religions have a vital knowledgable fact in it. How else would people believe in that religion?
Then what happened to the vital knowledge of the ancient viking followers of Thor the God of Thunder?  I don't see his believers very often these days.
You aren't looking hard enough, they are all around you...right at this moment...they are also ninja vikings.
Heh, so he's doing better than Odin? http://www.theonion.com/audio/viking-god-odin-down-to-last-4-worshippers,12963/
He does have the mightest spear  ???

Offline tyranim

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67289#msg67289
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2010, 11:34:08 pm »
well, i dont know if this has already been said, but i dont want to sift through 4 pages of comments, so im going to say it. just because you are athiest, doesnt mean you believe your going to stop existing when you die, it just means you dont believe any kind of god. there are many athiest religions out there, i just cant name any of them because i only heard of them all once in social studies class.
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Artois

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67296#msg67296
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2010, 11:50:03 pm »
well, i dont know if this has already been said, but i dont want to sift through 4 pages of comments, so im going to say it. just because you are athiest, doesnt mean you believe your going to stop existing when you die, it just means you dont believe any kind of god. there are many athiest religions out there, i just cant name any of them because i only heard of them all once in social studies class.
I find it hard to comprehend that a rational mind capable of rejecting the existance of a god, could also encompass the thought that there is a concious or spiritual existance after death.

Please tell me more, I'm curious?

Offline tyranim

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67302#msg67302
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2010, 11:59:47 pm »
simple. just because your body is dead, doesnt mean YOU are. for all we know, there could be such a thing as ghosts. but that doesnt mean there has to be an absolutely powerful being who rules all. its asinine to think that. (all of this is imo)
my milkshake brings all the boys to the yard and they're like "its better than yours" damn right, its better than yours! i can teach you but i'd have to charge!

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67305#msg67305
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2010, 12:15:32 am »
well, i dont know if this has already been said, but i dont want to sift through 4 pages of comments, so im going to say it. just because you are athiest, doesnt mean you believe your going to stop existing when you die, it just means you dont believe any kind of god. there are many athiest religions out there, i just cant name any of them because i only heard of them all once in social studies class.
I find it hard to comprehend that a rational mind capable of rejecting the existance of a god, could also encompass the thought that there is a concious or spiritual existance after death.

Please tell me more, I'm curious?
That's where a lot of minds fall apart, at a thought like that. But the afterlife does no have to be tied to religion, at all. Maybe when you die, you go to a mystical place where everything is made of your favorite food, or a place where your favorite game is a reality, or maybe you are simply reincarnated. Afterlife refers to what comes after death. There are probably hundreds of ideas of what the afterlife could be. Most of them come from religions, but many probably come from thoughts of fantasy, and all of them are equal because no one knows for certain until they die.
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Artois

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67306#msg67306
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2010, 12:21:50 am »
I understand, it is possible to believe in an afterlife without believing in any religion.

Why would there be an afterlife?  Isn't this life enough already?

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67321#msg67321
« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2010, 12:42:37 am »
Why would there be an afterlife?  Isn't this life enough already?

That's an extremely low value on life, in my opinion. I don't see how eighty years could be seen as "enough." How could a person ever want their consciousness to end? All of their memories disappear, no more experiences, no thoughts, no time, no anything, for eternity. Even if you live a million years, it's no different than only living eighty. In the end, it's basically like your life never happened. If there is nothing else, the universe is cruel for allowing the existence of life only to erase it.

Artois

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67323#msg67323
« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2010, 12:44:09 am »
Why would there be an afterlife?  Isn't this life enough already?

That's an extremely low value on life, in my opinion. I don't see how eighty years could be seen as "enough." How could a person ever want their consciousness to end? All of their memories disappear, no more experiences, no thoughts, no time, no anything, for eternity. Even if you live a million years, it's no different than only living eighty. In the end, it's basically like your life never happened. If there is nothing else, the universe is cruel for allowing the existence of life only to erase it.
Thats life, baby.  8)

PuppyChow

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67380#msg67380
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2010, 02:16:02 am »
I'm sorry that you seem to think that I look down on Christians, as I do not.  I can honestly say that I don't look down on anyone.  I don't think Christians are bigots (where have you gotten this idea?),
Bigots... re-reading it, I have no clue :). I guess what I was thinking is that since you think the Christian God is "fear mongering" and "jealous/insecure," naturally his followers are bad too. I mean, if someone says they worshiped the Devil, what would you assume about that person's mindset?

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but you're right in assuming that I don't think the Christian God is as wholesome as he proclaims himself to be -- and I'm allowed to think that. 
Yes, you are allowed to think that. You're allowed to think 1+1=3 too. That doesn't mean it's right.

From your original post:
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particular characteristics of the Christian God (insecurity, paranoia, jealousy).
Christianity says this is wrong.

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God desires humans to continually praise him and exalt him, and feels insecure enough that he must destroy and endlessly torment anyone who does not believe in him
Christianity says this is wrong.

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the entirety of humanity is going to hell.
Christianity says this is wrong.

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idea of Christianity to be too flawed, too obviously a fear-mongering control device
I believe this is wrong; Christianity is supposed to provide comfort, not fear. If you think otherwise I'll agree that's your choice. I'm not going to argue this point because I'm not in the mood of this turning into another Zeitgeist argument.

Granted, you can go on believing that the Christian God/Christianity is like that and I won't do anything to stop you; I tried.

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Now this is the part that made me angry.  Excuse me?  Where did I say anything of the sort?  You have stepped completely out of line.  You do not need religion to be a good person, and such an assumption is an atrocity. 

Puppychow, I respect your beliefs -- please have the decency to do the same for me.  I have had horrible experiences with Christianity, and I want absolutely nothing to do with it.  I will not PM you trying to explain why your views of atheism are flawed, so please don't PM me regarding Christianity for the same reason. 
I'm sorry; I got the wrong idea from the idea that "your time on this Earth is precious". If you truly do live a good life by helping others, shame on me for assuming wrong.

As to respecting your beliefs, I do respect atheism. In fact, a few of my best friends are atheist or agnostic. I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions you had about Christianity, ie that our God demands worship and is insecure. And I wanted to make sure you knew those misconceptions were cleared up.


Yes, but the problem is that christian God is not the only one spamming those emails. There are thousands of different religions in the world, each spamming emails. My question is: which one is right? I mean, they can't be all right because they contradict each other.

Lets take this thread as an example. Wardead is a Muslim, and knows his religion is right. PuppyChow is a christian and knows his religion is right. The problem is, one of you has to be wrong. So which one is it? Or maybe you are both wrong, and some Buddhist is right?

We have billions of people all over the world from different religions, everyone thinking they are right, and everyone else is wrong. Because only one religion can be right (if any), that means that huge majority of religious people are worshiping a false God.

Christians themselves are atheists when it comes to all those 999 non-christian religions. Atheists just take it one step further to make it a 1000.
You're exactly right. Notice I said the person "assumed it was just another scammer" :). The God of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity is the same one anyway. The specific beliefs may differ, but we all worship the same God.

Oh and again, it's called believing not knowing. I believe that my God is the right one and that the religion of the smelly shoe is the wrong one. My belief. Doesn't have to be yours.

PuppyChow

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67394#msg67394
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2010, 02:40:05 am »
Well, God can open your heart for you, to say he can't would disprove God, as God is omnipotent, and if he can't do something then he is not God. He just chooses not to, free will and all. But that's just nitpicking.
You're correct. He *could* force you to believe in him, but just as you said: we wouldn't have free will; we wouldn't be human.

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And that's one of the main reasons I don't believe in God or a Heaven. If heaven is so perfect, then I must have missed something because then how did Lucifer come about? Lucifer doesn't seem too close to perfection in my mind.
You're right. You don't understand how Lucifer came about.

1) Lucifer was perfect; a cherub, or powerful angel. In heaven.
2) Lucifer wanted to be like God and take power away from him.
3) Wanting to be like God, or overthrown him = Sin.
4) Lucifer sinned, and Sinful =/= Heaven.
5) Lucifer is kicked out of heaven for sinning.
6) Lucifer became a fallen angel/cherub. Hello Satan!

He was created because and out of sin. Not perfection.

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If the deciding factor between going to heaven or hell (and it is) is believing in God, then until I get concrete proof, non of this faith stuff, that he even exists, I have no reason to. I'd rather live my life happy and believe what I want than to believe a something that is most likely wrong, even if it turns out to be right in the end, than to force myself to believe a certain thing or way. There are tons of religions on this world, and each of them claims they are the right religion.
<Deja Vu>
Believing, not knowing. Your choice.
</Deja Vu>

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No offense, but that is a horrible analogy. If God was in my inbox, well then, that's sort of proof he exists and I can believe in him. Or something similar. God isn't trying to get in contact with me. Having man write a book and then thousands of years letter claiming it's God's word is like playing the Operator game. Where one person says a phrase into someone elses ear and then say that phrase to the next person over and over and over again until you get to the end. In the game, you get to find out what the original phrase was, but with the Bible, you can't go back and find out what it original was to see if everything said was correct or how far off from the original it was. That's like you telling a random stranger to come tell me that you want to give me $1000. Why would, or why should, I believe this random person, when You could have easily came over and told me yourself?
You misunderstood my analogy. Cliffnotes version:

1) Random dude in New York. Let's say his email is randomguy4231@random.com
2) You.
3) randomguy messages you and tells you he wants to give you a thousand dollars but he needs your address.
4) You refuse. Just think it's another scammer.
5) He keeps trying. Every day, every second, another email.
6) You keep refusing. You shut him out and put him on the "ignore" list.
7) He keeps trying to email you.
8) You never get the thousand dollars.

You see, you didn't know it was God. You were supposed to *believe*. Real version:

1) God sends you messages through people that he wants to give you eternal life but he needs you to open your heart to him.
2) You refuse the messages, denying them.
3) God never stops trying because he wants you to make it into heaven.
4) You never listen or realize he's sending you a message.
5) You don't believe and don't go to heaven.


God refuses to intervene directly in this world, for reasons only we can know. Maybe he wants to keep the current climate, wants to give us a chance to prove ourselves. We can speculate but there is no definite answer.

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And if heaven and his angels are so perfect, what about Lucifer? Or when the Angels came down and began having sexy time with the humans? Doesn't sound to perfect to me.
/Misconceptions Devil isn't in heaven /Misconceptions
/Misconceptions Hell isn't perfect. Hell is sin. /Misconceptions

Angels having sexy time with the humans? Um, which stories are we talking about?

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67406#msg67406
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2010, 02:58:39 am »
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You're right. You don't understand how Lucifer came about.

1) Lucifer was perfect; a cherub, or powerful angel. In heaven.
2) Lucifer wanted to be like God and take power away from him.
3) Wanting to be like God, or overthrown him = Sin.
4) Lucifer sinned, and Sinful =/= Heaven.
5) Lucifer is kicked out of heaven for sinning.
6) Lucifer became a fallen angel/cherub. Hello Satan!

He was created because and out of sin. Not perfection.
What? Contradicting much? How can someone be perfect yet created from sin? Regardless of the things that happened next, you said right there, Lucifer was perfect. Then he became not perfect. Perfect things aren't supposed to be able to be corrupted, hence why they are perfect.



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No offense, but that is a horrible analogy. If God was in my inbox, well then, that's sort of proof he exists and I can believe in him. Or something similar. God isn't trying to get in contact with me. Having man write a book and then thousands of years letter claiming it's God's word is like playing the Operator game. Where one person says a phrase into someone elses ear and then say that phrase to the next person over and over and over again until you get to the end. In the game, you get to find out what the original phrase was, but with the Bible, you can't go back and find out what it original was to see if everything said was correct or how far off from the original it was. That's like you telling a random stranger to come tell me that you want to give me $1000. Why would, or why should, I believe this random person, when You could have easily came over and told me yourself?
You misunderstood my analogy. Cliffnotes version:

1) Random dude in New York. Let's say his email is randomguy4231@random.com
2) You.
3) randomguy messages you and tells you he wants to give you a thousand dollars but he needs your address.
4) You refuse. Just think it's another scammer.
5) He keeps trying. Every day, every second, another email.
6) You keep refusing. You shut him out and put him on the "ignore" list.
7) He keeps trying to email you.
8) You never get the thousand dollars.

You see, you didn't know it was God. You were supposed to *believe*. Real version:

1) God sends you messages through people that he wants to give you eternal life but he needs you to open your heart to him.
2) You refuse the messages, denying them.
3) God never stops trying because he wants you to make it into heaven.
4) You never listen or realize he's sending you a message.
5) You don't believe and don't go to heaven.
Do you realize how ridiculous sounds? I really doubt if you were faced with the same email situation as above, I doubt you'd give that random email your address. And you second example, the "real version" is the same thing I stated above in what I said. Random person is telling you to believe in some mighty being or else I will suffer eternally. Yeah, I'm totally going to go and believe that random person.

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PuppyChow

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg67410#msg67410
« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2010, 03:09:32 am »
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What? Contradicting much? How can someone be perfect yet created from sin? Regardless of the things that happened next, you said right there, Lucifer was perfect. Then he became not perfect. Perfect things aren't supposed to be able to be corrupted, hence why they are perfect.
By created by and out of sin, I was referring to the Satan we know today. Not the Satan before he fell. Not the perfect Satan.

Yes, Lucifer was perfect and he became not perfect. Just like humans. We were all perfect until Adam and Eve gave in to temptation and became not perfect. At that point we became incompatible with heaven unless we are forgiven our sins. Same story with Lucifer. He was perfect until he made a mistake and then he wasn't and was banished from heaven.

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Do you realize how ridiculous sounds? I really doubt if you were faced with the same email situation as above, I doubt you'd give that random email your address. And you second example, the "real version" is the same thing I stated above in what I said. Random person is telling you to believe in some mighty being or else I will suffer eternally. Yeah, I'm totally going to go and believe that random person.
Hence, it's a simple analogy. In the case of the analogy you're right - I would probably be a non believer too.

As to it being a random person, that is entirely wrong. Yes, it could be that homeless guy you saw on the street yesterday that asked you for money (God was giving you a chance to donate to the needy), or maybe it's your next-door neighbor inviting you to a musical at Church. God is working through all of them ;).

 

blarg: