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Offline Kamietsu

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66734#msg66734
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2010, 02:54:40 am »
Regardless of how it makes me sound, it's the truth. It won't always come because not everyone is the same and reacts the same in the same situation. Self-centered or not, my time is too precious because I have to worry about myself first. I come first. I'm not going to go build a house for some needy person when I'm barely able to keep a roof over my head.


Quote
And honestly, living a christ-like life doesn't mean you need to believe. You can give charity and do good works while not believing. You still live christ-like (as much as you can); it's just that your sins aren't forgiven so you don't go to heaven.
And it's stuff like that that i would rather being atheist. I can be a great person, help everyone out and do such good things, and still go to hell simply because I don't believe in God. That just sounds very stupid to me. I'd rather do good because I want to, not because I'm doing it to get into heaven, or trying to live like some guy from thousands of years ago.

Be a good person, believe in God = heaven
Be a good person, don't believe in God = hell

Quote
No. Christians feel the need to worship God, for they (and I) believe he is their creator. God himself demands no worship. People listened to Jesus because they liked what he had to say and agreed with it, not because they would go to hell if they didn't.
The difference between a good person going to hell or heaven is whether or not they believe in God, sounds a lot like God want's to be worshiped.
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PuppyChow

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66737#msg66737
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2010, 03:03:56 am »
Now you just don't understand what heaven is, according to the Christian faith.

Heaven is a perfect place. EVERYTHING in it must be perfect. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be heaven anymore. It's like saying a cheese ball has to have cheese. If it didn't have cheese, it wouldn't be a cheese ball anymore.

God created man perfect, according to the Bible. As a stipulation of this, he gave man kind the *ability* to fail. Why? Because the ability to fail is pretty much the definition of free choice. Adam choose wrong, and listened to Eve and the serpent.

This made man imperfect.

So now we have a place where EVERYTHING must be perfect, and man, who is imperfect. Man and heaven aren't compatible now.

However, God has it in his heart to forgive your sins and make you perfect again. But he can't do that if you don't open your heart to him. He wishes he could, even wants to. But he just can't. He wants you to open your heart to him so he can forgive you and then so you can go to heaven.

Therefore, believe and you are forgiven and can go to heaven.
Don't believe and you stay incompatible with heaven, so you have to go somewhere else. ie, Hell.

God does not decide who goes and who doesn't go to heaven. If he had it his way, everyone would. But it doesn't work like that. Harvard wishes everyone was smart enough to get into it; it would make more money and be much happier. But if it admitted everyone, well, it wouldn't be Harvard anymore.

/logicked by Religion

mokasu

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66738#msg66738
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2010, 03:06:10 am »
Ummm...Correct me on my lack of knowledge plz. Is everyone forgeting the "real" meaning of life? Life is something really simple,you live,you reproduce,you die...Nothing more, nothing less...I personally enjoy the teaching of religion,and gods,but it doesnt mean I believe in them. If you die,you die,nothing u can do about it.What I think about all this talking about "Why Atheism" is like someone is trying to say that life is something way beyond the cycle of life: Live,Reproduce,and Death.I'm not telling anyone to just live and die,they can do something more during their life time,but theres nothing more after u die.The fact that any type of reigion is created is becuz people need something to believe in becuz they cant explain whatever the hell is happenig,people fear death,so they made up god,someone who will look after the humans.(ummm...plz correct me if anything is wrong)

mokasu

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66739#msg66739
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2010, 03:10:04 am »
God created man perfect, according to the Bible. As a stipulation of this, he gave man kind the *ability* to fail. Why? Because the ability to fail is pretty much the definition of free choice. Adam choose wrong, and listened to Eve and the serpent.

This made man imperfect.

Yes,the reason why humans are on top of the food chain is becuz of our "ability" to fail,and improve.
and Btw what do u call a "cheeseball" that have no cheese in it?

PuppyChow

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66740#msg66740
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2010, 03:11:37 am »
A cheese ball without cheese isn't a cheese ball anymore. It's just a ball. Which is exactly my point :). A heaven that isn't perfect isn't heaven.


mokasu

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66743#msg66743
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2010, 03:17:14 am »
A cheese ball without cheese isn't a cheese ball anymore. It's just a ball. Which is exactly my point :). A heaven that isn't perfect isn't heaven.
ummm...again,blame my lack of knowledge.If heaven is perfect,then why would humans be there? or even god.I believe they all make mistake,if theres mistakes,its not perfect.Besides,how can you if something's perfec? isnt it a matter of how u look at things?

PuppyChow

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66744#msg66744
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2010, 03:29:33 am »
You just keep proving my points for me. Thanks :D .

The Christian religion defines God as perfect. He has never made a mistake.

Therefore, he can be in heaven with his host of angels (who are also perfect).

Now humans on the other hand aren't perfect due to the sin we all carry. No amount of good deeds will ever erase this sin, so you will never be able to go into heaven. Unless God forgives you.

Analogy:

I really want to give you a thousand dollars. For free. For no charge, no strings attached. I'm just going to mail it to your house. This is God. He wants to free you of your sin and let you into heaven. You would owe him nothing, and it costs you nothing.

Now, to give you this money, I keep emailing you. And keep trying. And trying. But you don't believe me and think it's all just another scam. But I keep trying, and I never stop trying. All I want is to give you something free. All I need is your address so I can mail it. But you never answer me, thinking by giving me your address you'll suddenly get scammed everything. And that's natural; there ARE a lot of scammers out there.

This is what God is trying to do. He wants to give you amnesty and rid you of sin, and he never stops giving you chances to do so. He never stops trying to get you to believe. But you, the non believer, shut him out and refuse to listen to him, thinking it's all a lie. He can't prove to you he's real; he just tells you you have to believe. But you don't since you're very skeptic and think it is a lie (a very real possibility; there ARE lots of lies out there).

You just lost a thousand dollars. ie You just lost your chance at heaven.

Offline Kamietsu

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66747#msg66747
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2010, 03:43:16 am »
Now you just don't understand what heaven is, according to the Christian faith.

Heaven is a perfect place. EVERYTHING in it must be perfect. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be heaven anymore. It's like saying a cheese ball has to have cheese. If it didn't have cheese, it wouldn't be a cheese ball anymore.

God created man perfect, according to the Bible. As a stipulation of this, he gave man kind the *ability* to fail. Why? Because the ability to fail is pretty much the definition of free choice. Adam choose wrong, and listened to Eve and the serpent.

This made man imperfect.

So now we have a place where EVERYTHING must be perfect, and man, who is imperfect. Man and heaven aren't compatible now.

However, God has it in his heart to forgive your sins and make you perfect again. But he can't do that if you don't open your heart to him. He wishes he could, even wants to. But he just can't. He wants you to open your heart to him so he can forgive you and then so you can go to heaven.

Therefore, believe and you are forgiven and can go to heaven.
Don't believe and you stay incompatible with heaven, so you have to go somewhere else. ie, Hell.

God does not decide who goes and who doesn't go to heaven. If he had it his way, everyone would. But it doesn't work like that. Harvard wishes everyone was smart enough to get into it; it would make more money and be much happier. But if it admitted everyone, well, it wouldn't be Harvard anymore.

/logicked by Religion
Well, God can open your heart for you, to say he can't would disprove God, as God is omnipotent, and if he can't do something then he is not God. He just chooses not to, free will and all. But that's just nitpicking.

And that's one of the main reasons I don't believe in God or a Heaven. If heaven is so perfect, then I must have missed something because then how did Lucifer come about? Lucifer doesn't seem too close to perfection in my mind.

If the deciding factor between going to heaven or hell (and it is) is believing in God, then until I get concrete proof, non of this faith stuff, that he even exists, I have no reason to. I'd rather live my life happy and believe what I want than to believe a something that is most likely wrong, even if it turns out to be right in the end, than to force myself to believe a certain thing or way. There are tons of religions on this world, and each of them claims they are the right religion. Someone is bound to be wrong, though I actually hope that what I truely believe in is true:

That the human consciousness is a type of soul, and what it believes will happen most to it when it must leave the physical body, does. That is to say, every reilgion is right, and depending on which one you believe in, you get the end result of it. If you believe in Christ and lived a bad live, yoru soul will go to hell, yet if you believe that God doesn't exist and you cease to exist when you die, then that will also happen. 

For me, the thought of living forever in a perfect place is a horrible thought. Living forever is a horrible thought in general. Even if you are blessed with eternal bliss and can never be sad, never be depressed, you still can never cease to exist. I guess for me, ceasing to exist is the final sleep. Where we can finally rest for an eternity.

You just keep proving my points for me. Thanks :D .

The Christian religion defines God as perfect. He has never made a mistake.

Therefore, he can be in heaven with his host of angels (who are also perfect).

Now humans on the other hand aren't perfect due to the sin we all carry. No amount of good deeds will ever erase this sin, so you will never be able to go into heaven. Unless God forgives you.

Analogy:

I really want to give you a thousand dollars. For free. For no charge, no strings attached. I'm just going to mail it to your house. This is God. He wants to free you of your sin and let you into heaven. You would owe him nothing, and it costs you nothing.

Now, to give you this money, I keep emailing you. And keep trying. And trying. But you don't believe me and think it's all just another scam. But I keep trying, and I never stop trying. All I want is to give you something free. All I need is your address so I can mail it. But you never answer me, thinking by giving me your address you'll suddenly get scammed everything. And that's natural; there ARE a lot of scammers out there.

This is what God is trying to do. He wants to give you amnesty and rid you of sin, and he never stops giving you chances to do so. He never stops trying to get you to believe. But you, the non believer, shut him out and refuse to listen to him, thinking it's all a lie. He can't prove to you he's real; he just tells you you have to believe. But you don't since you're very skeptic and think it is a lie (a very real possibility; there ARE lots of lies out there).

You just lost a thousand dollars. ie You just lost your chance at heaven.
No offense, but that is a horrible analogy. If God was in my inbox, well then, that's sort of proof he exists and I can believe in him. Or something similar. God isn't trying to get in contact with me. Having man write a book and then thousands of years letter claiming it's God's word is like playing the Operator game. Where one person says a phrase into someone elses ear and then say that phrase to the next person over and over and over again until you get to the end. In the game, you get to find out what the original phrase was, but with the Bible, you can't go back and find out what it original was to see if everything said was correct or how far off from the original it was. That's like you telling a random stranger to come tell me that you want to give me $1000. Why would, or why should, I believe this random person, when You could have easily came over and told me yourself?

And if heaven and his angels are so perfect, what about Lucifer? Or when the Angels came down and began having sexy time with the humans? Doesn't sound to perfect to me.
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Scaredgirl

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66799#msg66799
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2010, 06:08:18 am »
I really want to give you a thousand dollars. For free. For no charge, no strings attached. I'm just going to mail it to your house. This is God. He wants to free you of your sin and let you into heaven. You would owe him nothing, and it costs you nothing.

Now, to give you this money, I keep emailing you. And keep trying. And trying. But you don't believe me and think it's all just another scam. But I keep trying, and I never stop trying. All I want is to give you something free. All I need is your address so I can mail it. But you never answer me, thinking by giving me your address you'll suddenly get scammed everything. And that's natural; there ARE a lot of scammers out there.

This is what God is trying to do. He wants to give you amnesty and rid you of sin, and he never stops giving you chances to do so. He never stops trying to get you to believe. But you, the non believer, shut him out and refuse to listen to him, thinking it's all a lie. He can't prove to you he's real; he just tells you you have to believe. But you don't since you're very skeptic and think it is a lie (a very real possibility; there ARE lots of lies out there).

You just lost a thousand dollars. ie You just lost your chance at heaven.
Yes, but the problem is that christian God is not the only one spamming those emails. There are thousands of different religions in the world, each spamming emails. My question is: which one is right? I mean, they can't be all right because they contradict each other.

Lets take this thread as an example. Wardead is a Muslim, and knows his religion is right. PuppyChow is a christian and knows his religion is right. The problem is, one of you has to be wrong. So which one is it? Or maybe you are both wrong, and some Buddhist is right?

We have billions of people all over the world from different religions, everyone thinking they are right, and everyone else is wrong. Because only one religion can be right (if any), that means that huge majority of religious people are worshiping a false God.

Christians themselves are atheists when it comes to all those 999 non-christian religions. Atheists just take it one step further to make it a 1000.

Offline pepokish

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66822#msg66822
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2010, 07:46:52 am »
Pepokish, I must say your views about Christianity are very flawed. You don't have to believe, but at least don't believe for the right reasons. If you made claims that it "wasn't proven" or something, I can accept that; that's why it's called believing and not knowing. However, you seem to not like and look down on Christians because you think we're all bigots that worship an evil being where even if there was a heaven wouldn't let anybody in to it.
I'm sorry that you seem to think that I look down on Christians, as I do not.  I can honestly say that I don't look down on anyone.  I don't think Christians are bigots (where have you gotten this idea?), but you're right in assuming that I don't think the Christian God is as wholesome as he proclaims himself to be -- and I'm allowed to think that. 

Are you one of those people that finds your life too precious to go help other people? Like devote maybe an hour a week to mission service?
Now this is the part that made me angry.  Excuse me?  Where did I say anything of the sort?  You have stepped completely out of line.  You do not need religion to be a good person, and such an assumption is an atrocity. 

Puppychow, I respect your beliefs -- please have the decency to do the same for me.  I have had horrible experiences with Christianity, and I want absolutely nothing to do with it.  I will not PM you trying to explain why your views of atheism are flawed, so please don't PM me regarding Christianity for the same reason. 

I'm finished with this thread, it's making me feel like crap.

airframe

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66842#msg66842
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2010, 09:18:06 am »
Belief = Knowledge

It may not be true knowledge, but it is knowledge. There is no evidence showing that my beliefs are false or true, so I will believe they are true. It's just like SG. She believes there is nothing supernatural because there is no evidence either way. If there is no support for either side, a person is free to choose which side they want to believe.
So belief is knowledge, of what exactly? If it means knowledge that what you believe is correct, that would be circular logic. And could be used to justify anything, even something that I would think to be immoral, so I cannot accept it. I find that blind faith and devotion is unacceptable by definition.

If according to some religion stoning people to death is proper punishment for adultery. Or lets say crusification (spelling?) as punishment for crimes. Is it justified because of belief in some supernatural being, one that there is no proof of, and is contradicted by gods of other religions.

Offline Wardead

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Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66892#msg66892
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2010, 12:02:01 pm »
If I was not a Muslim, I would rather choose Christianity than Atheism or any other religion except Jewish religion.

Jews and Christians are considered "People of the Book", which gives a possibility that the "Good Christians and Jews" get to go to Heaven. Heaven is a place where everything is perfect. We all understand that. To go to Heaven, we must worship God (in our religion, Allah). God does not need our worship, but says we should do it because he is the one who created us and we should repay him. This clears up some of the confusion. Hell is the place for "Evil Doers", be it ANY religion. Even some Muslims will go to Hell. If you believe in One God, The Prophets and be a good person, you will go to Heaven. Also prayer. Jews and Christians are eligible for Heaven, for worshipping more than one God or not believing in him is a direct way to Hell.

To make things clear, Is Islam was the true religion, Puppy can still go to Heaven, and I can still go to Hell. We both believed in God, but Puppy did more good deeds and I did a lot of sins. So Puppy can go to Heaven and I can go to Hell. But like I said, The followers of the monotheistic religions have gone bad. It is rare to find the "true" followers of these three religions. Atheism is a way of guiding people to Hell. Islam  seems to be the best choice since it does not compel people to follow Islam and the above reasons. And Islam is also the most scientifically correct religion, the most "true" religion. But the people have ruined Islam.

 

anything
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