*Author

Offline DemagogTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2557
  • Reputation Power: 40
  • Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.
  • New to Elements
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66415#msg66415
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2010, 05:56:35 pm »
Pepo wasn't being hateful, anymore than you were.

I don't think there is any reason to believe in something that we have no proof of.
His diction made it sound like he was. There's no way to hear a person's tone of voice, so that's all I had to go off of. If any of what I said sounds hateful, I assure you it's not. I merely desire to satisfy my curiosity.
Yes, nothing to worry about.

Quote
Belief doesn't require proof.

Then based on what you decide what religion you want to believe in? Just pick one and stick with it? The religion that perhaps your parents follow?

I have no need for supersticious beliefs. I find it much harder to believe in some god or gods than accepting that when my brain stops to function there is nothing after that for me.
I have no idea what religion my parents are, or if they are religious at all, if that answers your question. I believe what I believe for the same reason as everyone else believes what they believe, including you. It's what I want to believe.

What evidence points towards you ceasing to exist? There's no evidence either way.
Well, there is the medical evidence but I'm guessing that's not enough in this case? :)

I'll tell you a secret. I'm really an alien from the Gamma Galaxy. You don't believe me? Well, what evidence points towards me not being an alien from the Gamma Galaxy? Prove to me that I'm not an alien from the Gamma Galaxy.

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. Otherwise we could just make up stuff and nothing would make any sense.

If I told everyone that a magical green squirrel built the universe, everyone would think I'm nuts. But if I started a religion "The Church of the Magical Green Squirrel", wrote "holy" books, sacrificed acorns, etc. I would no longer be considered crazy because now it would be my religion. And if anyone wanted to prove me wrong, they would have to show me how the magical green squirrel couldn't have existed.*

*science is sometimes wrong so it is always wrong and the proof cannot be based on science


As for the last part, I wouldn't call that a problem with humans. I think that due to our intellect, it is necessary for us to want to believe there is life after death. I think our species would have died off a long time ago if we couldn't believe there was a point to our lives. Why live if it doesn't matter that you lived?

Perhaps I should also ask, how are you able to accept not existing?
Yes, this is the "point" you talked about in the first post. Like I said, I don't see a point in life really. It's the life itself that is the "point". Our job is to live a good life, help others, and reproduce. That's it. There is no prize at the end.

Me "not accepting" death is just denial. It's like getting cancer and saying over and over again "I don't have a cancer!". Sure you can do that but it makes no difference in the end.
You said that you believe you stop existing because all of the evidence points towards that. If anyone is guilty of not meeting the burden of proof, it's you. You say there is evidence, I say there is none. I don't know what medical evidence shows that people don't possess souls (or whatever part of us lives on after death).
Dude. Again? She doesn't have to prove there are no souls. You have to prove there are.
The argument is not over if souls exist, it's over there being evidence or not. She is the one making the claim that there is, I'm the one asking her to provide this evidence. The burden of proof is currently on her.

And thanks for your answer, Pepokish.

Offline Wardead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 842
  • Reputation Power: 10
  • Wardead is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.Wardead is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • New to Elements
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66426#msg66426
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2010, 06:05:15 pm »
Christianity does have flaws, and I am not proposing this just because I am not a Christian. The Bible has been changed, the "true" message has been changed so people may do anything they want. Atheism can be considered the belief on "nothing". They live freely, without the care after dying, am I correct? Now why in the world would we be sent in life without a purpose? Are we just free to do anything we want and not get punished? Of course we were sent in life with a purpose, to worship, just like a pen to write, or a car to give us transportation. Everything has a purpose.

And how were we created? Just by ourselves, or by chance? A pen was created by itself? A paper too? Seems odd. People should study religions and get the right thinking. Such as Islam (since I'm Muslim), we were created to worship God, and obey him. Heaven is the reward. Hell is the punishment. Sins can lead to Hell, Good Deeds to Heaven. Many examples of deeds, both good and bad. And there are many proofs that Islam is true. The Quran for example. It has many miracles in it itself. Try to read it, and understand it. Many verses have been misunderstood, and some people just read one verse and doesn't read the verse after it, which explains the previous verse.

Atheism is just, in my opinion, nonsense. 

Scaredgirl

  • Guest
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66436#msg66436
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2010, 06:18:59 pm »
The argument is not over if souls exist, it's over there being evidence or not. She is the one making the claim that there is, I'm the one asking her to provide this evidence. The burden of proof is currently on her.
No it's not. You fail to grasp the concept of burden of proof. I do not have to prove that something does not exist. You have to prove that it does.

The concept of soul is kind of like me saying I have an invisible friend. It's based on nothing but me saying it. You cannot prove me wrong because you cannot prove that there isn't and invisible person next to me.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

What you are doing is argument from ignorance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance).


A pen was created by itself? A paper too? Seems odd.
I don't know about pen but I do know that paper was invented by the Chinese, not by any divine being.

airframe

  • Guest
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66438#msg66438
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2010, 06:21:35 pm »
Quote
Then based on what you decide what religion you want to believe in? Just pick one and stick with it? The religion that perhaps your parents follow?

I have no need for supersticious beliefs. I find it much harder to believe in some god or gods than accepting that when my brain stops to function there is nothing after that for me.
I have no idea what religion my parents are, or if they are religious at all, if that answers your question. I believe what I believe for the same reason as everyone else believes what they believe, including you. It's what I want to believe.

Sorry, but that doesn't really answer my question. How do you know the religion you believe in is the correct one, as all of them claim to be. Perhaps you should believe in all of them? Mind you, I'm not really demanding an answer.

What I want to believe... Ah, okay. I really would like to have an endless feast in Valhalla when I die. It would be absolutely amazing, drinking and eating forever with vikings. Sadly, it is not a matter of belief. It either happens or it doesn't, I guess I just have to wait and see, don't I?

Offline Wardead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 842
  • Reputation Power: 10
  • Wardead is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.Wardead is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • New to Elements
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66439#msg66439
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2010, 06:25:15 pm »
Your "soul" is YOU. It is our mind, it is the being which lives inside us and controls us. We are the "souls". They body is like a cover, just imagine a ghost inside a human. The "ghost" is the soul. The Human is just the thing which we are controlling. And the soul is stuck in there until we die where it it tested in the graves on deeds and sins etc.

Without the soul, our body is like a wax dummy. With the soul, we are human. Same goes for animals and plants. Objects have no soul, so they cannot "think". Souls are not our imaginary friends or ghosts. They are ourselves.

Offline DemagogTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2557
  • Reputation Power: 40
  • Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.
  • New to Elements
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66452#msg66452
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2010, 06:39:20 pm »
The argument is not over if souls exist, it's over there being evidence or not. She is the one making the claim that there is, I'm the one asking her to provide this evidence. The burden of proof is currently on her.
No it's not. You fail to grasp the concept of burden of proof. I do not have to prove that something does not exist. You have to prove that it does.

The concept of soul is kind of like me saying I have an invisible friend. It's based on nothing but me saying it. You cannot prove me wrong because you cannot prove that there isn't and invisible person next to me.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

What you are doing is argument from ignorance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance).


A pen was created by itself? A paper too? Seems odd.
I don't know about pen but I do know that paper was invented by the Chinese, not by any divine being.
You don't understand the argument here. The argument isn't over whether or not souls exist. I am not saying they do. I believe they do, but that's not what I'm arguing about. This argument is about whether or not there is any evidence in support of whether or not souls exist. It's about evidence, not about souls. I don't have to prove there is evidence if it doesn't exist. On the other hand, you have to prove that it does.

Quote
Then based on what you decide what religion you want to believe in? Just pick one and stick with it? The religion that perhaps your parents follow?

I have no need for supersticious beliefs. I find it much harder to believe in some god or gods than accepting that when my brain stops to function there is nothing after that for me.
I have no idea what religion my parents are, or if they are religious at all, if that answers your question. I believe what I believe for the same reason as everyone else believes what they believe, including you. It's what I want to believe.

Sorry, but that doesn't really answer my question. How do you know the religion you believe in is the correct one, as all of them claim to be. Perhaps you should believe in all of them? Mind you, I'm not really demanding an answer.

What I want to believe... Ah, okay. I really would like to have an endless feast in Valhalla when I die. It would be absolutely amazing, drinking and eating forever with vikings. Sadly, it is not a matter of belief. It either happens or it doesn't, I guess I just have to wait and see, don't I?
Belief = Knowledge

It may not be true knowledge, but it is knowledge. There is no evidence showing that my beliefs are false or true, so I will believe they are true. It's just like SG. She believes there is nothing supernatural because there is no evidence either way. If there is no support for either side, a person is free to choose which side they want to believe.

Offline Wardead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 842
  • Reputation Power: 10
  • Wardead is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.Wardead is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • New to Elements
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66458#msg66458
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2010, 06:46:46 pm »
To prove souls exist, who is controling us? What is our mind? What is the thing which helps us think, comprehend besides the brain? It is the soul. The soul is our mind. The mind is NOT the brain. We are thinking about religion, but what is the thing which is helping us? The brain is just a mere organ. But within the brain, something lies which helps us do anything. It is the "imaginary mind", which is the soul. It is something real but we cannot feel it. When you read this, you try to understand it, your brain helps and checks your memory, but the thing that is controlling us is the soul.

Those who doesn't understand it, I cannot clarify it any further. It is impossible to comprehend it as it goes beyond our comprehension.

Offline Kamietsu

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3228
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 47
  • Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • Old to Elements
  • Awards: Spell Art Competition WinnerWinner of the MASH-UP CompetitionFunny Card Competition WinnerWinner of
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66483#msg66483
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2010, 07:39:59 pm »
To prove souls exist, who is controling us? What is our mind? What is the thing which helps us think, comprehend besides the brain? It is the soul. The soul is our mind. The mind is NOT the brain. We are thinking about religion, but what is the thing which is helping us? The brain is just a mere organ. But within the brain, something lies which helps us do anything. It is the "imaginary mind", which is the soul. It is something real but we cannot feel it. When you read this, you try to understand it, your brain helps and checks your memory, but the thing that is controlling us is the soul.

Those who doesn't understand it, I cannot clarify it any further. It is impossible to comprehend it as it goes beyond our comprehension.
I believe what you are describing are the billions of synapses firing very very tiny jolts of electricity. We are who we are because our brains dictate us to be like that through years of environmental influence and nurturing through parents, friends, and over loved ones.

And no one can technically clarify it any further because the brain is one of the most complex and least understood parts of us. Given time and research, most signs point to it all being how receptors receive neurotransmitters in our brain and how each part works with each other part.

The soul only exists because it's a fun thought for many people. Just like the concept of actual magic is a fun concept(who wouldn't want to be able to throw a ball of fire or make lightning strike at will?)


As for the atheist thing, I am going to laugh when we die and turns out we were wrong. On the flip-side, I'm going to laugh at each religion as it turns out they are wrong, unless atheism is right, in which case nothing would exist meaning I couldn't laugh. To each their own.

Being atheist just makes the most sense to me. Science makes sense to me, all of it, even the parts I don't fully understand, I can at least make heads or tails of it. Religion, I can understand it, but it's the difference between non-fiction and fiction. I know the rules to non-fiction, but each and every book of fiction, well, they each have their own rules, their own set of laws, their own everything basically. I'm not outright calling them all fiction, because I honestly don't know what will happen when we die. I believe most in a type of reincarnation, that when I die, I will be somewhat reborn, maybe as a human, maybe as a snake, maybe as a Filoptoniana from the planet Filopton.

I think, what I want to see the most before I fully commit to a religion or lack there of, is another planet with intelligent life. That, in my mind, would prove or disprove most religions. But it depends on that other planet. If their beliefs are the same as ours, or something along those lines, then maybe there is something to this religion thing, or the same super aliens colonized both out planets and those were our God(s), but if the religions here and the religions there were wildly different or didn't exist there at all, then I would probably stick to my atheism path.

But I'm stumped on really what to think(aside from the alien colonization theory) if the other planet also had a religion like christianity. Does that mean the writers of the bible, or God, decided to omit the parts about making a second planet? Or that God is just super selfish and has lots of planets or creatures worshipping him? Or is God just the universe's best troll?
╔╦╦═╦══╦╗  ( ̄ー ̄) --Snorlax says:
║═╣╬║║║║║    Eat your shower, brush your toothpaste, take your teeth.
╚╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╝

Offline Wardead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 842
  • Reputation Power: 10
  • Wardead is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.Wardead is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • New to Elements
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66493#msg66493
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2010, 08:12:01 pm »
Try studying Islam, it will clarify a lot of things. Read this from the Qur'an. And even though, you won't understand some parts, you will get an idea.

PuppyChow

  • Guest
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66726#msg66726
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2010, 02:09:11 am »
Pepokish, I must say your views about Christianity are very flawed. You don't have to believe, but at least don't believe for the right reasons. If you made claims that it "wasn't proven" or something, I can accept that; that's why it's called believing and not knowing. However, you seem to not like and look down on Christians because you think we're all bigots that worship an evil being where even if there was a heaven wouldn't let anybody in to it.

Quote
There is no reason to believe that heaven is a place where you get to lounge around and relax until the end of time, especially considering some particular characteristics of the Christian God (insecurity, paranoia, jealousy).  God desires humans to continually praise him and exalt him, and feels insecure enough that he must destroy and endlessly torment anyone who does not believe in him.  And even aside from that, the prospect of existing forever seems completely egotistical and fantastic (and not in the good way).
No. Christians feel the need to worship God, for they (and I) believe he is their creator. God himself demands no worship. People listened to Jesus because they liked what he had to say and agreed with it, not because they would go to hell if they didn't.

Quote
Then again, even if the concept of heaven was a reality, I would never believe that any human would be worthy of entrance, by God's standards.  If we are to take the bible literally (which, evidently, no one ever does, anymore), essentially the entirety of humanity is going to hell.
You are right, in a sense. Humankind is sinful and the only way to get into heaven is by being completely free of sin. So it's impossible, right? Wrong. When Jesus died on the cross for our sins, all of our sins, past present and future, are forgiven. All one needs to do is ask Jesus into your heart and truly believe, and then try to mirror your actions in life like that, and you go to heaven. This is taking God's word literally, by the way.

Quote
All in all, I find the idea of Christianity to be too flawed, too obviously a fear-mongering control device, and too unappealing to waste my precious time on (and my time is precious, because it is so short).
Are you one of those people that finds your life too precious to go help other people? Like devote maybe an hour a week to mission service? You don't need to go to Church to go to heaven, be a Christian, and live a christ-like life.

If you think helping the needy (maybe help build a house, or a deck, or clean an area up) is something not worth your time, you obviously have never tried it. It makes you have this nice warm feeling inside that you actually did something good; a lot like what you probably felt about the leaf dragon drawing. But even more because you're helping people who have nothing versus helping Zanzarino make an art drawing for a game.

Offline Kamietsu

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3228
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 47
  • Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • Old to Elements
  • Awards: Spell Art Competition WinnerWinner of the MASH-UP CompetitionFunny Card Competition WinnerWinner of
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66730#msg66730
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2010, 02:29:54 am »
If you think helping the needy (maybe help build a house, or a deck, or clean an area up) is something not worth your time, you obviously have never tried it. It makes you have this nice warm feeling inside that you actually did something good; a lot like what you probably felt about the leaf dragon drawing. But even more because you're helping people who have nothing versus helping Zanzarino make an art drawing for a game.
That's not even remotely in the same ballpark as true. Believing something to not be worth your time doesn't mean they've never tried it. You are taking what you feel and generalizing it. Helping build a house for a needy family might give you a nice warm sensation inside, but for someone else it could be boring, or too laborious, or something else completely. Believing and living a christ-like life doesn't make everyone feel warm and nice inside. For someone like me, it makes me feel foolish that I'd believe something like that. But I guess most christians would feel the same way if they tried to be atheist.
╔╦╦═╦══╦╗  ( ̄ー ̄) --Snorlax says:
║═╣╬║║║║║    Eat your shower, brush your toothpaste, take your teeth.
╚╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╝

PuppyChow

  • Guest
Re: Why Atheism? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6397.msg66731#msg66731
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2010, 02:37:19 am »
Quote
That's not even remotely in the same ballpark as true. Believing something to not be worth your time doesn't mean they've never tried it. You are taking what you feel and generalizing it. Helping build a house for a needy family might give you a nice warm sensation inside, but for someone else it could be boring, or too laborious, or something else completely. Believing and living a christ-like life doesn't make everyone feel warm and nice inside. For someone like me, it makes me feel foolish that I'd believe something like that. But I guess most christians would feel the same way if they tried to be atheist.
You have no clue how self centered that sounds.

"I don't want to help needy people because I find it boring!"
"I don't want to help people destroyed by a natural disaster because it's too much work!"

Tell that to a child starving in Sudan. "Sorry. It's just too much work." Or a survivor of the Haitian earthquake. "Nah, can't help ya out. My time is too precious to go help you."

Also, you can do charity in a way you find enjoyable. If you like pets/animals, you could go volunteer at a humane society for an hour a week. Help in a way you like.

And honestly, living a christ-like life doesn't mean you need to believe. You can give charity and do good works while not believing. You still live christ-like (as much as you can); it's just that your sins aren't forgiven so you don't go to heaven.

If you don't feel good after you give your time to help someone out, just think about what you did and the impact you may have had on that person's life. It'll come.

 

blarg: