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kalkiran

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Re: Was Jesus the son of God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6523.msg103589#msg103589
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2010, 06:09:35 am »
at italy2
1.there are other options-he was a very clever man and knew religion was a good way of establishing order.
2.he was a very good liar
3.he was an ethical man and tried to use higher authority to back up his arguments
4.he had very mild delusions that were unnoticable and allowed him to see the world a different way
5.he never existed-but was created by the apostles entirely after the date of his supposed crucifiction(i know this is the least likely of the options talked about but still...+it would be very effective if pulled of right i.e we associate hanging out with someone good as being good and people would be keen to invent circumstances were they met him.)
6....cant think of any more :(
anyway you can see there are other options

Artois

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Re: Was Jesus the son of God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6523.msg103639#msg103639
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2010, 10:04:04 am »
Did Jesus claim to be the Messiah, or where those words put in his mouth after the event by his followers?

Out of curiousity, does Jesus claim to be the messiah in jewish texts from the time, or in the Koran?
Im not familiar with the koran, but I can say that Jesus fulfilled the Judaic prophecies of the time. Common sense tells me jewish texts, however, I have a feeling you have some sort of answer to the contrary which im sure you will back up by a web address that way I wont have to ask how you got your info.
Unfortunately, I have no web address or insider knowledge or hebrew hoodoo.  However, I am curious as to what those texts say, as I suspect, the Jewish texts of the time, quite clearly mention Jesus the prophet, rather than Jesus the messiah.  Further, I wonder if Jesus did fulfill the Judaic prophesies of the time, as the Jews (whose prophesies you state he fulfilled) did not acknowledge him as the Messiah?

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Re: Was Jesus the son of God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6523.msg103684#msg103684
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2010, 12:38:28 pm »
Yes, he did fulfill the prophecies of the old testament, I posted either earlier in this topic o in another all the prophecies, but I cant find it right now.
It was actually prophecied that he would not be accepted by his own people.

He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and like one from whom men hide their face, He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. (Isaiah 53:3)

The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief corner stone. (Psalm 118:22)

So the problem actually would have been if he WAS accepted by all the jewish people.

at italy2
1.there are other options-he was a very clever man and knew religion was a good way of establishing order.
2.he was a very good liar
3.he was an ethical man and tried to use higher authority to back up his arguments
4.he had very mild delusions that were unnoticable and allowed him to see the world a different way
5.he never existed-but was created by the apostles entirely after the date of his supposed crucifiction(i know this is the least likely of the options talked about but still...+it would be very effective if pulled of right i.e we associate hanging out with someone good as being good and people would be keen to invent circumstances were they met him.)
6....cant think of any more :(
anyway you can see there are other options
All of those except for 5 which you yourself acknowledged is a longshot, ignore the fact of all the prophecies that he fulfilled, Many of which were out of the hands of the disciples and him.

It was prophecied that he would be betrayed for 30 silver, and although that would be easy enough to do on purpose, the guilt would not have driven someone to kill themselves if it was a greater plan.
He was spat on and struck by the guards, scourged by the guards as well, crucified with malefactors. pierced through hands and feet , buried with the rich , the list goes on and on of things that were not done by the apostles, but done by people who had no association to him. It is all clear in the bible, and really just leaves it to if you believe the whole bible is true or not. It leaves it to faith, which is exactly where it should be left at..
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Artois

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Re: Was Jesus the son of God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6523.msg103702#msg103702
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2010, 01:31:47 pm »
It was prophecied that he would be betrayed for 30 silver, and although that would be easy enough to do on purpose, the guilt would not have driven someone to kill themselves if it was a greater plan.
He was spat on and struck by the guards, scourged by the guards as well, crucified with malefactors. pierced through hands and feet , buried with the rich , the list goes on and on of things that were not done by the apostles, but done by people who had no association to him. It is all clear in the bible, and really just leaves it to if you believe the whole bible is true or not. It leaves it to faith, which is exactly where it should be left at..
Why should it be left to faith?

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Re: Was Jesus the son of God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6523.msg103710#msg103710
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2010, 01:48:59 pm »
It was prophecied that he would be betrayed for 30 silver, and although that would be easy enough to do on purpose, the guilt would not have driven someone to kill themselves if it was a greater plan.
He was spat on and struck by the guards, scourged by the guards as well, crucified with malefactors. pierced through hands and feet , buried with the rich , the list goes on and on of things that were not done by the apostles, but done by people who had no association to him. It is all clear in the bible, and really just leaves it to if you believe the whole bible is true or not. It leaves it to faith, which is exactly where it should be left at..
Why should it be left to faith?
Whats the problem with it being left to faith? It is written that the heavens and the earth were created so that no man may deny it. God gave us all the proof we need, but mans thirst for knowledge is the very thing that draws us away from him, and is the oldest trick in the book (literally, the temptation of knowledge is what cause the fall of man in the first place).
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kalkiran

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Re: Was Jesus the son of God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6523.msg103780#msg103780
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2010, 04:45:05 pm »
the seeking of knowledge is a noble/good/brilliant act i wasnt aware that god actively disliked science or other forms of knowledge seeking.
Is not a pilgrimage a "search for knowledge"?
Many scientists (less so in the modern world) are religious men.
Darwin for one.
why should searching for knowledge draw us away god?
and what happens should we seek knowledge?
what happens in this world or-if it exists-the next?
is not seeking knowledge and curiosity coupled well with(if you are religious)wonder at gods creation?
People who dont believe in god as soon as they hear about him arent being mean-just practical. In your opinion should they punished?
It is said that babies are clay molded fresh from gods hands-yet can it be said that they believe in him?

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Re: Was Jesus the son of God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6523.msg103859#msg103859
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2010, 06:25:23 pm »
the seeking of knowledge is a noble/good/brilliant act i wasnt aware that god actively disliked science or other forms of knowledge seeking.
Is not a pilgrimage a "search for knowledge"?
Many scientists (less so in the modern world) are religious men.
Darwin for one.
why should searching for knowledge draw us away god?
and what happens should we seek knowledge?
what happens in this world or-if it exists-the next?
is not seeking knowledge and curiosity coupled well with(if you are religious)wonder at gods creation?
People who dont believe in god as soon as they hear about him arent being mean-just practical. In your opinion should they punished?
It is said that babies are clay molded fresh from gods hands-yet can it be said that they believe in him?
The discussion is straying again from the central question, but I had to pose this:

Is knowledge a worthy destination or does it serve better as a tool for some other goal?
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Re: Was Jesus the son of God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6523.msg104046#msg104046
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2010, 10:28:44 pm »
the seeking of knowledge is a noble/good/brilliant act i wasnt aware that god actively disliked science or other forms of knowledge seeking.
Is not a pilgrimage a "search for knowledge"?
Many scientists (less so in the modern world) are religious men.
Darwin for one.
why should searching for knowledge draw us away god?
and what happens should we seek knowledge?
what happens in this world or-if it exists-the next?
is not seeking knowledge and curiosity coupled well with(if you are religious)wonder at gods creation?
People who dont believe in god as soon as they hear about him arent being mean-just practical. In your opinion should they punished?
It is said that babies are clay molded fresh from gods hands-yet can it be said that they believe in him?
I am merely pointing out that many times, knowledge can take us away from God. Man wants to know everything, and having a God that knows more than us can often make us feel like we have no control over ourselves, and we believe the more knowledge we have, the more control we gain.

The discussion is straying again from the central question, but I had to pose this:

Is knowledge a worthy destination or does it serve better as a tool for some other goal?
I think there is nothing wrong with knowledge. Its the people who find it that make a bad use out of it.
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Re: Was Jesus the son of God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6523.msg104275#msg104275
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2010, 04:07:15 am »

The discussion is straying again from the central question, but I had to pose this:

Is knowledge a worthy destination or does it serve better as a tool for some other goal?
I think there is nothing wrong with knowledge. Its the people who find it that make a bad use out of it.
I'm not worried about whether knowledge is a good thing--I'm asking whether those who pursue knowledge as a pure passion are doing something worthwhile as opposed to those who seek to learn so that they can effect a change.
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kalkiran

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Re: Was Jesus the son of God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6523.msg104363#msg104363
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2010, 05:47:16 am »
i think its good/worthy in itself yes but it can be bad if the aim is evil.

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Re: Was Jesus the son of God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6523.msg104540#msg104540
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2010, 12:18:40 pm »
i think its good/worthy in itself yes but it can be bad if the aim is evil.
agreed. And soemtimes you can be so smart youre stupid. i heard once, that the guy who created fireworks, thought it would end wars because then they would be too dangerous. Dont know if its true or not, but its still funny.
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kalkiran

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Re: Was Jesus the son of God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6523.msg104642#msg104642
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2010, 04:35:05 pm »
some people thought that about nuclear bombs, didnt they?
however i heard somewhere that a nuclear missile attack on the west by russia during the cold war was averted by only two or three votes. although this doesnt disprove the first line, it does put it in some dispute.

 

blarg: