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The First Cause Argument https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8601.msg99716#msg99716
« on: June 24, 2010, 12:54:23 am »
Here is something that I came across called the first cause argument, a theory that explains God existence by using reason.  Try to read through it and explain what you think...

The most famous of all arguments for the existence of God are the "five ways" of Saint Thomas Aquinas. One of the five ways, the fifth, is the argument from design, which we looked at in the last essay. The other four are versions of the first-cause argument, which we explore here.

The argument is basically very simple, natural, intuitive, and commonsensical. We have to become complex and clever in order to doubt or dispute it. It is based on an instinct of mind that we all share: the instinct that says everything needs an explanation. Nothing just is without a reason why it is. Everything that is has some adequate or sufficient reason why it is.

Philosophers call this the Principle of Sufficient Reason. We use it every day, in common sense and in science as well as in philosophy and theology. If we saw a rabbit suddenly appear on an empty table, we would not blandly say, "Hi, rabbit. You came from nowhere, didn't you?" No, we would look for a cause, assuming there has to be one. Did the rabbit fall from the ceiling? Did a magician put it there when we weren't looking? If there seems to be no physical cause, we look for a psychological cause: perhaps someone hypnotized us. As a last resort, we look for a supernatural cause, a miracle. But there must be some cause. We never deny the Principle of Sufficient Reason itself. No one believes the Pop Theory: that things just pop into existence for no reason at all. Perhaps we will never find the cause, but there must be a cause for everything that comes into existence.


Now the whole universe is a vast, interlocking chain of things that come into existence. Each of these things must therefore have a cause. My parents caused me, my grandparents caused them, et cetera. But it is not that simple. I would not be here without billions of causes, from the Big Bang through the cooling of the galaxies and the evolution of the protein molecule to the marriages of my ancestors. The universe is a vast and complex chain of causes. But does the universe as a whole have a cause? Is there a first cause, an uncaused cause, a transcendent cause of the whole chain of causes? If not, then there is an infinite regress of causes, with no first link in the great cosmic chain. If so, then there is an eternal, necessary, independent, self-explanatory being with nothing above it, before it, or supporting it. It would have to explain itself as well as everything else, for if it needed something else as its explanation, its reason, its cause, then it would not be the first and uncaused cause. Such a being would have to be God, of course. If we can prove there is such a first cause, we will have proved there is a God.

Why must there be a first cause? Because if there isn't, then the whole universe is unexplained, and we have violated our Principle of Sufficient Reason for everything. If there is no first cause, each particular thing in the universe is explained in the short run, or proximately, by some other thing, but nothing is explained in the long run, or ultimately, and the universe as a whole is not explained. Everyone and everything says in turn, "Don't look to me for the final explanation. I'm just an instrument. Something else caused me." If that's all there is, then we have an endless passing of the buck. God is the one who says, "The buck stops here."

If there is no first cause, then the universe is like a great chain with many links; each link is held up by the link above it, but the whole chain is held up by nothing. If there is no first cause, then the universe is like a railroad train moving without an engine. Each car's motion is explained proximately by the motion of the car in front of it: the caboose moves because the boxcar pulls it, the boxcar moves because the cattle car pulls it, et cetera. But there is no engine to pull the first car and the whole train. That would be impossible, of course. But that is what the universe is like if there is no first cause: impossible.

Here is one more analogy. Suppose I tell you there is a book that explains everything you want explained. You want that book very much. You ask me whether I have it. I say no, I have to get it from my wife. Does she have it? No, she has to get it from a neighbor. Does he have it? No, he has to get it from his teacher, who has to get it. . . et cetera, etcetera, ad infinitum. No one actually has the book. In that case, you will never get it. However long or short the chain of book borrowers may be, you will get the book only if someone actually has it and does not have to borrow it. Well, existence is like that book. Existence is handed down the chain of causes, from cause to effect. If there is no first cause, no being who is eternal and self-sufficient, no being who has existence by his own nature and does not have to borrow it from someone else, then the gift of existence can never be passed down the chain to others, and no one will ever get it. But we did get it. We exist. We got the gift of existence from our causes, down the chain, and so did every actual being in the universe, from atoms to archangels. Therefore there must be a first cause of existence, a God.
 
In more abstract philosophical language, the proof goes this way. Every being that exists either exists by itself, by its own essence or nature, or it does not exist by itself. If it exists by its own essence, then it exists necessarily and eternally, and explains itself. It cannot not exist, as a triangle cannot not have three sides. If, on the other hand, a being exists but not by its own essence, then it needs a cause, a reason outside itself for its existence. Because it does not explain itself, something else must explain it. Beings whose essence does not contain the reason for their existence, beings that need causes, are called contingent, or dependent, beings. A being whose essence is to exist is called a necessary being. The universe contains only contingent beings. God would be the only necessary being—if God existed. Does he? Does a necessary being exist? Here is the proof that it does. Dependent beings cannot cause themselves. They are dependent on their causes. If there is no independent being, then the whole chain of dependent beings is dependent on nothing and could not exist. But they do exist. Therefore there is an independent being.

Saint Thomas has four versions of this basic argument.

First, he argues that the chain of movers must have a first mover because nothing can move itself. (Moving here refers to any kind of change, not just change of place.) If the whole chain of moving things had no first mover, it could not now be moving, as it is. If there were an infinite regress of movers with no first mover, no motion could ever begin, and if it never began, it could not go on and exist now. But it does go on, it does exist now. Therefore it began, and therefore there is a first mover.
Second, he expands the proof from proving a cause of motion to proving a cause of existence, or efficient cause. He argues that if there were no first efficient cause, or cause of the universe's coming into being, then there could be no second causes because second causes (i.e., caused causes) are dependent on (i.e., caused by) a first cause (i.e., an uncaused cause). But there are second causes all around us. Therefore there must be a first cause.
Third, he argues that if there were no eternal, necessary, and immortal being, if everything had a possibility of not being, of ceasing to be, then eventually this possibility of ceasing to be would be realized for everything. In other words, if everything could die, then, given infinite time, everything would eventually die. But in that case nothing could start up again. We would have universal death, for a being that has ceased to exist cannot cause itself or anything else to begin to exist again. And if there is no God, then there must have been infinite time, the universe must have been here always, with no beginning, no first cause. But this universal death has not happened; things do exist! Therefore there must be a necessary being that cannot not be, cannot possibly cease to be. That is a description of God.
Fourth, there must also be a first cause of perfection or goodness or value. We rank things as more or less perfect or good or valuable. Unless this ranking is false and meaningless, unless souls don't really have any more perfection than slugs, there must be a real standard of perfection to make such a hierarchy possible, for a thing is ranked higher on the hierarchy of perfection only insofar as it is closer to the standard, the ideal, the most perfect. Unless there is a most-perfect being to be that real standard of perfection, all our value judgments are meaningless and impossible. Such a most-perfect being, or real ideal standard of perfection, is another description of God.
There is a single common logical structure to all four proofs. Instead of proving God directly, they prove him indirectly, by refuting atheism. Either there is a first cause or not. The proofs look at "not" and refute it, leaving the only other possibility, that God is.

Each of the four ways makes the same point for four different kinds of cause: first, cause of motion; second, cause of a beginning to existence; third, cause of present existence; and fourth, cause of goodness or value. The common point is that if there were no first cause, there could be no second causes, and there are second causes (moved movers, caused causers, dependent and mortal beings, and less-than-wholly-perfect beings). Therefore there must be a first cause of motion, beginning, existence, and perfection.

How can anyone squirm out of this tight logic? Here are four ways in which different philosophers try.

First, many say the proofs don't prove God but only some vague first cause or other. "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, not the God of philosophers and scholars", cries Pascal, who was a passionate Christian but did not believe you could logically prove God's existence. It is true that the proofs do not prove everything the Christian means by God, but they do prove a transcendent, eternal, uncaused, immortal, self-existing, independent, all-perfect being. That certainly sounds more like God than like Superman! It's a pretty thick slice of God, at any rate—much too much for any atheist to digest.
Second, some philosophers, like Hume, say that the concept of cause is ambiguous and not applicable beyond the physical universe to God. How dare we use the same term for what clouds do to rain, what parents do to children, what authors do to books, and what God does to the universe? The answer is that the concept of cause is analogical—that is, it differs somewhat but not completely from one example to another. Human fatherhood is like divine fatherhood, and physical causality is like divine causality. The way an author conceives a book in his mind is not exactly the same as the way a woman conceives a baby in her body either, but we call both causes. (In fact, we also call both conceptions.) The objection is right to point out that we do not fully understand how God causes the universe, as we understand how parents cause children or clouds cause rain. But the term remains meaningful. A cause is the sine qua non for an effect: if no cause, no effect. If no creator, no creation; if no God, no universe.
Third, it is sometimes argued (e.g., by Bertrand Russell) that there is a self-contradiction in the argument, for one of the premises is that everything needs a cause, but the conclusion is that there is something (God) which does not need a cause. The child who asks "Who made God?" is really thinking of this objection. The answer is very simple: the argument does not use the premise that everything needs a cause. Everything in motion needs a cause, everything dependent needs a cause, everything imperfect needs a cause.
Fourth, it is often asked why there can't be infinite regress, with no first being. Infinite regress is perfectly acceptable in mathematics: negative numbers go on to infinity just as positive numbers do. So why can't time be like the number series, with no highest number either negatively (no first in the past) or positively (no last in the future)? The answer is that real beings are not like numbers: they need causes, for the chain of real beings moves in one direction only, from past to future, and the future is caused by the past. Positive numbers are not caused by negative numbers. There is, in fact, a parallel in the number series for a first cause: the number one. If there were no first positive integer, no unit one, there could be no subsequent addition of units. Two is two ones, three is three ones, and so on. If there were no first, there could be no second or third.

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Re: The First Cause Argument https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8601.msg121139#msg121139
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2010, 06:53:24 pm »
It's a very well thought out argument. I think the reason there hasn't been more discussion is that it's very long, and long opening posts tend to frighten a lot of people off.

The first cause argument is, in my belief anyway, one of the better proofs of a divine being. I've never found someone who could give an answer to it, and it's been around for centuries.

In case anyone is having trouble working through the opening post here's my summary of the argument:

-Causality states that the cause of something must come before the effect. This is a widely accepted principal of physics, and it has been proven multiple times.
-Nothing existed before the universe began (except possibly God), therefore the universe must have had a cause that does not follow the same rules as everything else.

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Re: The First Cause Argument https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8601.msg125474#msg125474
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2010, 09:55:48 am »
This is a very difficult issue. We would actually need to know better how the universe works to answer it.

I think you really covered the whole problem already.

A few things:

Can infinite regression not exist in the natural world? Now I don't know that, but it's a mind boggling paradox.

1) If the universe is infinite, this is beyond our comprehension.

2) If the universe has an end, what does it look like? Is there something outside it? Then again, it's infinite and beyond our comprehension.

A common theory is the universe started with the ''big bang.'' It's also called ''the anomaly.'' Say that is true, why are you so sure this anomaly is a deity? Maybe the seed of the universe was always there somewhere, but does that make it an intelligent designer?

You say nothing can pop out of no where, but is that true really? Yes, ex nihilo nihil fit... But does that solve your problems? It doesn't actually. A deity had to make the universe from matter. So the matter was already there or the deity popped it into existence, which is the same thing you say is impossible.   
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Re: The First Cause Argument https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8601.msg125493#msg125493
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2010, 11:39:45 am »
I don't know if I understand what is being said, so I'll just start with the first part I have trouble with:

"Nothing just is without a reason why it is."

I have to disagree with this.  Existence just is.

For there to be a reason, the reason has to exist, and therefore the reason is part of existence and thus can not be the cause of existence.

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Re: The First Cause Argument https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8601.msg125616#msg125616
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2010, 03:04:40 pm »
I don't know if I understand what is being said, so I'll just start with the first part I have trouble with:

"Nothing just is without a reason why it is."

I have to disagree with this.  Existence just is.

For there to be a reason, the reason has to exist, and therefore the reason is part of existence and thus can not be the cause of existence.
Let me try to clarify. The statement "Nothing just is without a reason why it is." is not really a central part of the argument.

The argument is based on the principal of causality, that is to say the cause of something must happen before the effect. This is really common sense, I won't get a headache before the apple falls on my head, the apple won't fall before the wind knocks it out of the tree, et cetera.

Now consider the beginning of the universe. There was no "before" to fall back on. Therefore the only thing that could have caused the universe is something that can violate causality.


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Re: The First Cause Argument https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8601.msg125641#msg125641
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2010, 03:33:43 pm »
Now consider the beginning of the universe. There was no "before" to fall back on. Therefore the only thing that could have caused the universe is something that can violate causality.
This may be where semantics rears its head.

I would say the universe is a subset of "existence".  There is speculation that there could be multiple universes and there are beliefs in powers, beings, forces, etc., outside or prior to the universe.  All of these things would still be in the realm of existence.

If there was nothing at all, there would always be nothing.  Existence is what there is and there is no way to start that without having something in the first place.  So, I would say what exists is without reason.

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Re: The First Cause Argument https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8601.msg125688#msg125688
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2010, 05:09:10 pm »
This may be where semantics rears its head.

I would say the universe is a subset of "existence".  There is speculation that there could be multiple universes and there are beliefs in powers, beings, forces, etc., outside or prior to the universe.  All of these things would still be in the realm of existence.

If there was nothing at all, there would always be nothing.  Existence is what there is and there is no way to start that without having something in the first place.  So, I would say what exists is without reason.
There is a distinction between outside of existence and capable of violating causality.

What you have described actually is a violation of causality, you have merely said that it just exists, rather than ascribing it to anything.

Either way there must be an exception to the normal rules by which the universe runs, merely in one case no attempt is made to explain it and a gaping hole is left in the logic of the universe.

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Re: The First Cause Argument https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8601.msg125723#msg125723
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2010, 06:13:31 pm »
Either way there must be an exception to the normal rules by which the universe runs, merely in one case no attempt is made to explain it and a gaping hole is left in the logic of the universe.
I do know that how the universe runs as we perceive it is very different than how it works, say on the atomic scale.  When the universe began, so did mass, time, force, and everything else.  So the usual is not necessary.  I am quite sure science won't have it figured out before I die so I'm fine with a gaping hole.

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Re: The First Cause Argument https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8601.msg126473#msg126473
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2010, 03:48:14 pm »
Is
Quote
If we saw a rabbit suddenly appear on an empty table, we would not blandly say, "Hi, rabbit. You came from nowhere, didn't you?" No, we would look for a cause, assuming there has to be one.
seriously part of your argument? The assumptions humans make as a result of millions of years of evolution are not logically sustainable. Virtual particles are uncaused. Nuclear decay is uncaused. All quantum phenomena are uncaused, and every macroscopic phenomenon is no more than an emergent aggregate of many quantum events, so macroscopic phenomena are uncaused as well. Causation is simply a useful approximation; it isn't how the universe actually works. The "Principle of Sufficient Reason" is complete bullshit. Even if we assume that causation was valid, causation only works if time exists: before the universe originated there was no such thing as time and so no possibility for it to be preceded in time, hence the universe must be causeless.

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If it exists by its own essence, then it exists necessarily and eternally, and explains itself.
Why? If something can cause itself to exist - and some things can (virtual particles, for example) - then it does not have to be necessary nor eternal.

As to the whole "impossible for there to be an infinite chain of dependencies thing", I call bullshit. Where in this wall of text did you prove that the universe is finite? For all we know the universe has undergone a series of "big bangs" and "big crunches", stretching back forever. Besides hand-waving "I can't comprehend an infinite universe", what is your proof?

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Fourth, there must also be a first cause of perfection or goodness or value. We rank things as more or less perfect or good or valuable. Unless this ranking is false and meaningless, unless souls don't really have any more perfection than slugs, there must be a real standard of perfection to make such a hierarchy possible, for a thing is ranked higher on the hierarchy of perfection only insofar as it is closer to the standard, the ideal, the most perfect. Unless there is a most-perfect being to be that real standard of perfection, all our value judgments are meaningless and impossible. Such a most-perfect being, or real ideal standard of perfection, is another description of God.
Fourth, there must also be a first cause of evil or malice or worthlessness. We rank things as more or less  evil or malicious or worthless. Unless this ranking is false and meaningless, unless murderers don't really have any more malice than saints, there must be a real standard of evil to make such a hierarchy possible, for a thing is ranked higher on the hierarchy of evil only insofar as it is closer to the standard, the ideal, the most evil. Unless there is a most-evil being to be that real standard of evil, all our value judgments are meaningless and impossible. Such a most-evil being, or real ideal standard of evil, is another description of God.

Basically, any subjective measure with differing degrees by this argument must be manifest in god. Thus god is evil, good, perfect, flawed, jealous, angry, hateful, flatulent, etc.

Besides which, it's a rubbish argument. Who says that the real standard of perfection has to actually exist? Does a perfect solar cell have to exist before I can start rating the efficiency of solar cells? Does the embodiment of sexiness have to exist before we can start ranking people based on their sex appeal? Of course not. We can't express quantitively the fraction of the maximum efficiency or sexiness unless we have the optimum to compare to, but we don't have to express these things quantitively. In fact, we can't express "perfection" or "goodness" quantitively.

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First, many say the proofs don't prove God but only some vague first cause or other. "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, not the God of philosophers and scholars", cries Pascal, who was a passionate Christian but did not believe you could logically prove God's existence. It is true that the proofs do not prove everything the Christian means by God, but they do prove a transcendent, eternal, uncaused, immortal, self-existing, independent, all-perfect being. That certainly sounds more like God than like Superman! It's a pretty thick slice of God, at any rate—much too much for any atheist to digest.
And all of these things could equally apply to the universe. By the principle of Occam's razor we can skip the deity.

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Third, it is sometimes argued (e.g., by Bertrand Russell) that there is a self-contradiction in the argument, for one of the premises is that everything needs a cause, but the conclusion is that there is something (God) which does not need a cause. The child who asks "Who made God?" is really thinking of this objection. The answer is very simple: the argument does not use the premise that everything needs a cause. Everything in motion needs a cause, everything dependent needs a cause, everything imperfect needs a cause.
So your solution to the accusation of special pleading is to switch to the bizarre. God is presumably in motion, so he needs a cause.

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Fourth, it is often asked why there can't be infinite regress, with no first being. Infinite regress is perfectly acceptable in mathematics: negative numbers go on to infinity just as positive numbers do. So why can't time be like the number series, with no highest number either negatively (no first in the past) or positively (no last in the future)? The answer is that real beings are not like numbers: they need causes, for the chain of real beings moves in one direction only, from past to future, and the future is caused by the past. Positive numbers are not caused by negative numbers. There is, in fact, a parallel in the number series for a first cause: the number one. If there were no first positive integer, no unit one, there could be no subsequent addition of units. Two is two ones, three is three ones, and so on. If there were no first, there could be no second or third.
You haven't proved shit here, you've just repeated what you said before. Why can't there be an infinite regress?

And the section in italics: sorry, but it's not always the case. Quantum mechanics is symmetrical with respect to time, and the future affects the past on occassion.

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Re: The First Cause Argument https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8601.msg126486#msg126486
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2010, 04:16:12 pm »
Let's take a look at some of this:

Is
Quote
If we saw a rabbit suddenly appear on an empty table, we would not blandly say, "Hi, rabbit. You came from nowhere, didn't you?" No, we would look for a cause, assuming there has to be one.
seriously part of your argument? The assumptions humans make as a result of millions of years of evolution are not logically sustainable. Virtual particles are uncaused. Nuclear decay is uncaused. All quantum phenomena are uncaused, and every macroscopic phenomenon is no more than an emergent aggregate of many quantum events, so macroscopic phenomena are uncaused as well. Causation is simply a useful approximation; it isn't how the universe actually works. The "Principle of Sufficient Reason" is complete bullshit. Even if we assume that causation was valid, causation only works if time exists: before the universe originated there was no such thing as time and so no possibility for it to be preceded in time, hence the universe must be causeless.
You've mixed up "triggers unpredictably" with "causeless" nuclear decay is caused by the inherent instability of some atomic nuclei, virtual particles can be caused by the interaction of electric charges, vacuum polarization, or any number of other phenomena.

Given this, the rest of your argument falls flat.

You are also trying to draw comparisons directly between the smallest objects known to exist (quantum mechanics) and the largest object in existence (the whole universe). This is unsustainable, as quantum particles can be demonstrated to have vastly different modes of action than macroscopic objects.

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If it exists by its own essence, then it exists necessarily and eternally, and explains itself.
Why? If something can cause itself to exist - and some things can (virtual particles, for example) - then it does not have to be necessary nor eternal.

As to the whole "impossible for there to be an infinite chain of dependencies thing", I call bullshit. Where in this wall of text did you prove that the universe is finite? For all we know the universe has undergone a series of "big bangs" and "big crunches", stretching back forever. Besides hand-waving "I can't comprehend an infinite universe", what is your proof?
The second law of thermodynamics says you're wrong. An infinite series of Big bangs is a clear violation of the laws of physics.

It is impossible to decrease the total entropy in a closed system, so your "big crunch" couldn't happen without outside help that is somehow immune to the laws of physics. Even if there where an "outside the universe" that could donate energy into the universe somehow, you have only expanded the problem, not solved it.

The rest of your rebuttals refer back to these two flawed arguments,and can't hold up on their own.

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Re: The First Cause Argument https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8601.msg126505#msg126505
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2010, 04:54:44 pm »
Really long post, so I'm only going to take it in bite-sized pieces. I'll come back for the rest later.

Is
Quote
If we saw a rabbit suddenly appear on an empty table, we would not blandly say, "Hi, rabbit. You came from nowhere, didn't you?" No, we would look for a cause, assuming there has to be one.
seriously part of your argument? The assumptions humans make as a result of millions of years of evolution are not logically sustainable. Virtual particles are uncaused. Nuclear decay is uncaused. All quantum phenomena are uncaused, and every macroscopic phenomenon is no more than an emergent aggregate of many quantum events, so macroscopic phenomena are uncaused as well. Causation is simply a useful approximation; it isn't how the universe actually works. The "Principle of Sufficient Reason" is complete bullshit. Even if we assume that causation was valid, causation only works if time exists: before the universe originated there was no such thing as time and so no possibility for it to be preceded in time, hence the universe must be causeless.
You've mixed up "triggers unpredictably" with "causeless" nuclear decay is caused by the inherent instability of some atomic nuclei, virtual particles can be caused by the interaction of electric charges, vacuum polarization, or any number of other phenomena.

Given this, the rest of your argument falls flat.
Nuclear decay isn't caused at all; it's "anti-caused". It's only when causation fails to act as it should that nuclear decay occurs. If causation worked, relatively stable nuclei would never decay. The particular motion of a particle over an infinite period of time is precisely determined by the potential energy gradient of the space-time around it (at a very large distance, mind). For any finite duration however there are an infinite number of potential energy arrangements that would result in the exact same probability distribution, and every single object in the universe (constrained by the distance divided by the speed of light) contributes to the potential energy field of every other point in the universe. So everything causes everything else. Further, there is no requirement that any quantum event ever actually occur over a finite span of time. Nothing actually gets caused; the odds of something happening are merely increased.

On a quantum level (even on a macroscopic level, actually), there is no causal distinction between "something that could facilitate the event being in place" and "everything that could stop the event being elsewhere". The only 'cause' required to create the universe is that there was nothing to stop it being created.

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If it exists by its own essence, then it exists necessarily and eternally, and explains itself.
Why? If something can cause itself to exist - and some things can (virtual particles, for example) - then it does not have to be necessary nor eternal.

As to the whole "impossible for there to be an infinite chain of dependencies thing", I call bullshit. Where in this wall of text did you prove that the universe is finite? For all we know the universe has undergone a series of "big bangs" and "big crunches", stretching back forever. Besides hand-waving "I can't comprehend an infinite universe", what is your proof?

The second law of thermodynamics says you're wrong. An infinite series of Big bangs is a clear violation of the laws of physics.

It is impossible to decrease the total entropy in a closed system, so your "big crunch" couldn't happen without outside help that is somehow immune to the laws of physics.
[/quote]
And the second law of thermodynamics is routinely violated by quantum phenomena, because the second law only applies to macroscopic systems. Once the universe has "crunched", its size is on a quantum scale, and hence it is not bound by thermodynamics. Small differences in state which occur as a result of normal quantum fluctuations on such a small scale are exaggerated by a "bang" event. The big crunch "resets" entropy.

As for how the big crunch could happen, I'd just like to point out that gravity is a force that decreases the entropy of a system. In most cases it is counteracted by other forces, so the second law is not violated. However, gravity forms black holes (which, interestingly, have a higher entropy than their components so as not to violate the second law) and so condenses matter. In a universe with less dark energy than ours (or different values for the constants) a big crunch would be inevitable and not violate any physical laws.

The one thing I forgot to mention actually was the big one: the observable universe is not necessarily the whole universe. Nothing in big bang theory implies that it was the beginning of space and time, only that it was the beginning of space and time as we now know it.

Offline ratcharmer

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Re: The First Cause Argument https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8601.msg126644#msg126644
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2010, 07:58:51 pm »
The quotation thing is a little messed up there.

The statements regarding "anti-causing" don't work. You can define any cause in terms of there not being something to prevent it, i.e. the box didn't move because I pushed it, but because someone wasn't pushing on the other side. Radioactive nuclei emit particles when the forces attracting them to the other particles in the nucleus become weaker than the forces pushing them apart.

Quantum mechanics is a way of statistically describing processes that we cannot observe without interfering with the system. They do not track all of the forces acting on a given particle at a given time, nor can they track the progress of a single particle.
 
If the only thing required for a universe to appear is nothing actively preventing it then why aren't more universes appearing every instant?

The problem with applying the second law of thermodynamics to quantum physics is that a quantum system is not a closed system. A local decrease in entropy is allowed, so long as entropy increases elsewhere.

That the Big Bang started as a singularity is irrelevant, since entropy would have to increase before the universe could reach that state.

Again on the second law of thermodynamics and how it affects the Big Bang, no there couldn't have been time before the Big Bang. When all of the matter in the universe was condensed into a single point this was the absolute minimum entropy possible, and since entropy must increase over time there could not have been a "before the big bang".

 

blarg: