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Kael Hate

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg251022#msg251022
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2011, 01:32:16 pm »
What caused you to claim that "Free will does not exist."?
What makes you think it does?
Mostly because society operates with the assumption that it does and I find the idea (even if false) to be comforting.

To be exact the comfort comes from looking backward through this argument

P1.   If people don't have free will, then they are not morally responsible for their actions.
P2.   But, people are morally responsible for their actions.
C1.   So, people do have free will.

I would like to life as if people are morally responsible for their actions.
People don't have free will, they are not morally responsible for their actions, we are.
I must have misunderstood ^this sentence. If we are morally responsible for the actions of others then we have free will.
Its why we broadcast our programing to others, its why we tell others that murder and theft is wrong in our society rather than let people work it out for themselves.
If there is no free will then we do not act, we happen. There is not motive behind our actions only a direct line from the first cause to the last effect.
I guess I could pull the old (modified) Pascal trick.
It is impossible to determine if Free Will does or does not exist
If free will does exist then there would be a moral responsibility for our actions.
If free will does not exist then there would not be a moral responsibility for our actions.
Ignoring an existent moral responsibility is worse than being programmed to believe in a nonexistent moral responsibility.
Therefore we ought to try to believe in an existent moral responsibility.
If free will exists then we have a chance of fulfilling our obligations.
If free will does not exist then we have not ventured anything unforetold.
If you have free will, kill yourself now.
If you can't then you have no free will and are programmed to survive and stay alive.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg251062#msg251062
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2011, 01:56:47 pm »
I guess I could pull the old (modified) Pascal trick.
It is impossible to determine if Free Will does or does not exist
If free will does exist then there would be a moral responsibility for our actions.
If free will does not exist then there would not be a moral responsibility for our actions.
Ignoring an existent moral responsibility is worse than being programmed to believe in a nonexistent moral responsibility.
Therefore we ought to try to believe in an existent moral responsibility.
If free will exists then we have a chance of fulfilling our obligations.
If free will does not exist then we have not ventured anything unforetold.
If you have free will, kill yourself now.
If you can't then you have no free will and are programmed to survive and stay alive.
That is not a good test. As I have shown above, If I have free will then I have a responsibility to live a moral life. If I do not have free will then I am unable to alter from my programming (such programming can include suicide). So if I did spontaneously kill myself that would only be proof against free will not for it.

How do you respond to my argument quoted above?
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
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Offline BluePriest

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg251076#msg251076
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2011, 02:36:53 pm »
If you have free will, kill yourself now.
If you can't then you have no free will and are programmed to survive and stay alive.
Look up suicides. They all had choices.  It IS obviously a choice.
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Daxx

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg252844#msg252844
« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2011, 10:08:50 pm »
What caused you to claim that "Free will does not exist."?
What makes you think it does?
Mostly because society operates with the assumption that it does and I find the idea (even if false) to be comforting.

To be exact the comfort comes from looking backward through this argument

P1.   If people don't have free will, then they are not morally responsible for their actions.
P2.   But, people are morally responsible for their actions.
C1.   So, people do have free will.

I would like to life as if people are morally responsible for their actions.
The problem here is that P2 is an unfounded assumption, which means that your conclusion is not supported.

Also Pascal's Wager is not a good method of determining truth. Wanting something to be true because you find it comforting or you are afraid of the consequences does not make it so.

Can you prove or even make a solid argument that free will exists?

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg252847#msg252847
« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2011, 10:13:51 pm »
What caused you to claim that "Free will does not exist."?
What makes you think it does?
Mostly because society operates with the assumption that it does and I find the idea (even if false) to be comforting.

To be exact the comfort comes from looking backward through this argument

P1.   If people don't have free will, then they are not morally responsible for their actions.
P2.   But, people are morally responsible for their actions.
C1.   So, people do have free will.

I would like to life as if people are morally responsible for their actions.
The problem here is that P2 is an unfounded assumption, which means that your conclusion is not supported.

Also Pascal's Wager is not a good method of determining truth. Wanting something to be true because you find it comforting or you are afraid of the consequences does not make it so.

Can you prove or even make a solid argument that free will exists?
You picked the wrong argument. I said looking backward through this^ argument is why I want to believe in Free Will. (Aka Free Will must exist for P2 to be true and I want P2 to be true therefore I want Free Will to exist.)

However since I do not believe that Free Will can be proved I will instead repeat this argument for why you should act as if it does.
Quote
I guess I could pull the old (modified) Pascal trick.
It is impossible to determine if Free Will does or does not exist
If free will does exist then there may be a moral responsibility for our actions.
If free will does not exist then there would not be a moral responsibility for our actions.
Ignoring an existent moral responsibility is worse than being programmed to believe in a nonexistent moral responsibility.
Therefore we ought to try to believe in an existent moral responsibility.
If free will exists then we have a chance of fulfilling our obligations if they exist.
If free will does not exist then we have not ventured anything unforetold.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
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Daxx

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg252850#msg252850
« Reply #65 on: January 20, 2011, 10:17:03 pm »
Like I said, Pascal's Wager doesn't determine truth.

You can act like you want, but if you're going to claim a position based off nothing but expected outcomes then you may as well start worshipping God.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg252857#msg252857
« Reply #66 on: January 20, 2011, 10:23:52 pm »
Like I said, Pascal's Wager doesn't determine truth.

You can act like you want, but if you're going to claim a position based off nothing but expected outcomes then you may as well start worshipping God.
Like I said it is an argument for how you should/will act. Also it doesn't fall apart under closer examination like Pascal's does.

Pascal's argument for believing in God falls to
1) Pragmatism does not inspire Faith
2) The argument works for many types of Gods
3) Greed for eternal life is a sin under the teachings of Pascal's God

While with Free Will nothing is lost ever.
If there is no Free Will then believing in Free Will would have been predetermined
If there is Free Will then believing in Free Will would be correct.

I think the important thing is being right about moral matters not knowing(which I epistemologically believe is impossible) you are right.
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Daxx

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg252893#msg252893
« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2011, 11:26:54 pm »
The problems come when you use that as a predicate for further arguments. For example, if you use your assumption that free will exists as a predicate for an argument about the nature of morality (or indeed any other argument), then you can't be sure that the conclusion is sound.

And, importantly, the rejection of truth in favour of self-interest is no better than "faith".

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg252902#msg252902
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2011, 11:39:56 pm »
The problems come when you use that as a predicate for further arguments. For example, if you use your assumption that free will exists as a predicate for an argument about the nature of morality (or indeed any other argument), then you can't be sure that the conclusion is sound.

And, importantly, the rejection of truth in favour of self-interest is no better than "faith".
It is true that the soundness of argument based off unproved premises decreases. However all useful premises are either unproved or deductive rewordings. Even deductive rewordings are based on unproved premises.

Also I agree that the rejection of truth in favor of self-interest is no better than faith.
However I would claim that the rejection of the pursuit of moral action due to a roadblock preventing knowledge is foolish. Hence my belief that being moral is more important then knowing if you are being moral which is in turn more important than self-interest.
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Daxx

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg255083#msg255083
« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2011, 11:33:48 am »
However I would claim that the rejection of the pursuit of moral action due to a roadblock preventing knowledge is foolish.
But that is supposing that there is such a thing as moral action to begin with, which I reject. The extremely vague terms "good", "bad" and "evil" are basically a convenient shorthand for "I approve/disapprove of and/or like/dislike this (with varying degrees of intensity) for any one of a number of reasons including social conditioning or instinctive self-preservation."

The origin of the concept of morals has its roots in social control mechanisms. If I am a person in authority, and I declare something to be immoral, then I am both declaring myself the arbiter of acceptable actions (and thus appropriating power) and also implicitly creating a case for punishment which is easier to justify than "I don't like it". This is pretty much exactly how priestly castes exerted (and continue to exert) social control.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg255100#msg255100
« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2011, 12:04:59 pm »
However I would claim that the rejection of the pursuit of moral action due to a roadblock preventing knowledge is foolish.
But that is supposing that there is such a thing as moral action to begin with, which I reject. The extremely vague terms "good", "bad" and "evil" are basically a convenient shorthand for "I approve/disapprove of and/or like/dislike this (with varying degrees of intensity) for any one of a number of reasons including social conditioning or instinctive self-preservation."

The origin of the concept of morals has its roots in social control mechanisms. If I am a person in authority, and I declare something to be immoral, then I am both declaring myself the arbiter of acceptable actions (and thus appropriating power) and also implicitly creating a case for punishment which is easier to justify than "I don't like it". This is pretty much exactly how priestly castes exerted (and continue to exert) social control.
May I point out that it is not a roadblock preventing knowledge in this field but rather your belief that morality is a social construct that prompted your comment.

May claim was:
If you halt the pursuit due to a roadblock to knowledge then you are foolish.
I did not claim:
If you halt the pursuit due to believing it to be worthless then you are foolish.

Please note the difference between the first (my claim) and the second (your preliminary misinterpretation of my claim)

On to your first paragraph:
You describe moral codes borne out of moral intuition very well. However I happen to believe moral intuition is not worth my nor your time an as such it is not a part of my attempts to pursue moral action. The rejection of moral intuition makes the role of constructing a moral code harder but frees one from the chain of irrelevant emotions corrupting the process.

On to your second paragraph:
You point out the truth that morality was initially used as a tool to control the masses. However a concept being used for control does not prove or even supply evidence toward it being false.

Now for clarity:
You do not believe that morality has any objective nature?
I guess if this is true then I would like to gain insight into yet another amoralist viewpoint.
What should you do? This is a personal question about what you believe you should do and why? What is the motive that guides you if not morality?
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Daxx

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg255107#msg255107
« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2011, 12:28:44 pm »
May I point out that it is not a roadblock preventing knowledge in this field but rather your belief that morality is a social construct that prompted your comment.

May claim was:
If you halt the pursuit due to a roadblock to knowledge then you are foolish.
I did not claim:
If you halt the pursuit due to believing it to be worthless then you are foolish.

Please note the difference between the first (my claim) and the second (your preliminary misinterpretation of my claim)
Fair enough. Mea culpa.

You point out the truth that morality was initially used as a tool to control the masses. However a concept being used for control does not prove or even supply evidence toward it being false.
That is true. However, what I was mostly driving at is that it was created for that purpose, which makes it more difficult to use existing concepts of morality as an argument supporting an objective moral code. To be fair here, you are trying to avoid this. It's more of a reference point for other people reading the conversation.

Now for clarity:
You do not believe that morality has any objective nature?
I guess if this is true then I would like to gain insight into yet another amoralist viewpoint.
What should you do? This is a personal question about what you believe you should do and why? What is the motive that guides you if not morality?
I don't see any evidence to suggest that morality is anything other than a human construct, and therefore relative to social norms and based heavily on those memes that have built up in society to ensure its survival. It is my opinion that the variance of moral codes across societies supports this.

Given that, it is my consideration that a person has nothing that they "should" do from an objective viewpoint. Subjectively, it seems that we are under a number of motivations which originate from a mix of instinctive responses and programmed responses - a mix of nature and nurture on our actions - ranging from the drive to reproduce and survival instincts, to the tendency towards obedience to authority and not rocking the boat, to the tendency to screw other people over if the benefit is large enough. Of course, many of these drives are in opposition, and balance each other1. Many of these things are beneficial to society as a whole and to the people within them, which is why they have survived on the genetic and memetic levels. Even more interesting is that the system is capable of self-modifying, so that a person may reason themselves into assigning different weights to different actions (usually this has its roots in some external source somewhere though). Of course, like any set of variables across a population, sometimes the system turns out differently - this leading to sociopathic or extremely altruistic behaviour.

1 This has interesting parallels to the most successful artificial intelligences yet designed - a number of inputs produce competing drives in various directions: the balance of this pandemonium determines the output. It is unsurprising that our brains would work the same way.

 

anything
blarg: