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Kael Hate

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg249791#msg249791
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2011, 04:17:26 am »
I am trying to explain the inner conversation of a person with conflicting motives only 1 of which is their moral beliefs.

Maybe I can try to explain it in another method
Favorable option: The most valued option
Moral option: The option that coincides with the persons moral beliefs
Pleasurable option: The option that creates the most pleasure for the actor

For some people they occasionally value the pleasurable option more than the moral option. In these cases the favorable option in their mind is the pleasurable option not the moral option. In these cases the person voluntarily chooses the pleasurable option even if it is the immoral option.
You are trying to split them into 3 categories when they are not. Morals define pleasures, pleasures define needs, needs define morals. Altogether they are evaluated as a sum of the experience for known.

A person knows no lust until after they have been exposed.
I am sorry but those categories are distinct

I like food. It tastes good. I do not think eating is moral (neither do I find it immoral).
This is anecdotal evidence that the pleasurable and the moral are not 1:1. They do happen to overlap and in some people they are 1:1 however most people have examples where they are not 1:1.

When I was a child (that was still old enough to have opinions about right and wrong) I decided the gain from a small theft was more favorable than the little weight I gave morality at that time.
This is an an anecdotal evidence that the favorable and the moral are not 1:1. They do happen to overlap and in most people they are 1:1 however some people have examples where they are not 1:1.

Morals do not define pleasure. Electric impulses in the pleasure center define basic pleasure and pride (and other higher emotions) define more complex pleasures. One of these sources of more complex pleasures is the morals of the individual but not all.
Consider if Morals were the sole source of pleasures:
Does an apple taste good? Not unless there is a moral imperative attached to believing the apple tastes good.
Does pain hurt? Not unless the pain is not morally permissible.
I do not know about you but to me Apples taste good (aka cause pleasure) because they trigger chemical reactions that respond with my chemistry that tell me it tastes good. I also find all pain painful even morally permissible kinds like shaving.
I never said the relation was 1:1, I said that together they make a whole. Its is a combination of all three and more that give you conclusion to a choice.

When any choice is made, a result of oll the previous choices has to be evaluated. A coin that is flipped already has its result known if all variables can be made known. When we make a choice, we try to evalute things filling in unknowns with things we have known before. Eating an apple could be defined to us in sum a good thing so that when we  need to evaluate eating an apple we do not need to evaluate all previous experiences but instead use the smaller summary of those. We call that instinct because it comes from experiences related to chemical predispositions in the body. Murder on the other hand is a Moral choice because we often have never experienced it and are choosing a result based on the perceptions of things that have occured in relation to murder and communicated to us through transition. When it comes for us to kill we evalute the perceptions of those Morals and again the other resulting experiences like instinct and come to a descision.

A person cannot ignore previous experience, only evalute it as incorrect when evaluating this choice. If it was previously Immoral to murder being that I have seen the results of others murder and that result is undesirable by default, I can knowingly still commit murder if the evaluation of those shared results is less than the other results I need to accomplish. 

Let me try to explain it another way.

The result of dice rolled is already defined. The variables that affect its transition have already been set in motion before the dice even leaves your hand. If you could percieve all variables the right choice would be instantly apparent to you. Because you do not know all the varibles you can only make a choice on previous experience, Ie when the dice leaves the rollers hand a 6 is facing out followed by a 4, showing that a horizontal spin will predicate a more likely chance for 6,4,3,1 to be shown over a 5,2. Now if it is been passed to us via experience that it is unfair to have that knowledge when the dice is rolled we will come to decision whether to observe the motions or not, and then we will evaluate that need to win against or need to be respected and then that will be evaluated and so on in an infinitely complex length of choices. Being infinitly complex we need to reduce the amount of information to process, and this is done by pre-setting variables using past descions so we don't have to evaluate the full branch of that experience again. Morals are Ethical varibles pre-defined by social experience and suggested to us so that when we come to make a decision variables we have not known can be provided for us. Ie Cheating is wrong. When it comes for us to make the decision we evaluate the weight of the perception that cheating is wrong against that of the varables that say making the action we are doing is right and the result that is found and taken will be the right choice in that evaluation and never be wrong at that point.

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg249805#msg249805
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2011, 04:32:53 am »
@Kael Hate:
That is correct. I now see where we are disagreeing is on which word "right" is being used.

You are using "right" as I use Favorable
I was using "right" as I use Moral

You are correct that no man knowingly errs or chooses that which they deem to be on the whole unfavorable.

However when pleasure outweighs morals then you get someone who knowingly does "moral wrong" in the pursuit of doing what they think is "favorable right".

Do we agree on this?

If not do we disagree about the possible existence of morally irrelevant factors in decisions?
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
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Kael Hate

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg249944#msg249944
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2011, 09:51:42 am »
@Kael Hate:
That is correct. I now see where we are disagreeing is on which word "right" is being used.

You are using "right" as I use Favorable
I was using "right" as I use Moral

You are correct that no man knowingly errs or chooses that which they deem to be on the whole unfavorable.

However when pleasure outweighs morals then you get someone who knowingly does "moral wrong" in the pursuit of doing what they think is "favorable right".

Do we agree on this?

If not do we disagree about the possible existence of morally irrelevant factors in decisions?
We probably are.

Note Morals are an Ethical construct not a personal construct. So something that is morally wrong like murder or theft may not pe personally wrong because the first is an evaluation made by the majority of a community and does not take into personal consideration on the commiter and the second is a personal act evaluated on on the experience of the commiter. This means that something can be morally wrong and the commiter is aware that the community will see his actions as wrong but in his evaluation he is making the correct descision and thus not accepting of morals and not morally wrong himslef.


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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg250140#msg250140
« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2011, 03:25:02 pm »
@Kael Hate:
That is correct. I now see where we are disagreeing is on which word "right" is being used.

You are using "right" as I use Favorable
I was using "right" as I use Moral

You are correct that no man knowingly errs or chooses that which they deem to be on the whole unfavorable.

However when pleasure outweighs morals then you get someone who knowingly does "moral wrong" in the pursuit of doing what they think is "favorable right".

Do we agree on this?

If not do we disagree about the possible existence of morally irrelevant factors in decisions?
We probably are.

Note Morals are an Ethical construct not a personal construct. So something that is morally wrong like murder or theft may not pe personally wrong because the first is an evaluation made by the majority of a community and does not take into personal consideration on the commiter and the second is a personal act evaluated on on the experience of the commiter. This means that something can be morally wrong and the commiter is aware that the community will see his actions as wrong but in his evaluation he is making the correct descision and thus not accepting of morals and not morally wrong himslef.
Ah and there was the second disagreement
I believe in an objective morality (hence individuals have individual opinions of what is moral or immoral and they are often incorrect because they do not correlate 1:1 with the unknown independent standard[God,Truth,Reality,...])
You believe in a society relative morality?
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
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Kael Hate

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg250676#msg250676
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2011, 12:58:20 am »
We probably are.

Note Morals are an Ethical construct not a personal construct. So something that is morally wrong like murder or theft may not pe personally wrong because the first is an evaluation made by the majority of a community and does not take into personal consideration on the commiter and the second is a personal act evaluated on on the experience of the commiter. This means that something can be morally wrong and the commiter is aware that the community will see his actions as wrong but in his evaluation he is making the correct descision and thus not accepting of morals and not morally wrong himslef.
Ah and there was the second disagreement
I believe in an objective morality (hence individuals have individual opinions of what is moral or immoral and they are often incorrect because they do not correlate 1:1 with the unknown independent standard[God,Truth,Reality,...])
You believe in a society relative morality?
Yes, thats what Morals are, societal relative. Without society there are no Morals.
A man who exists outside of a society has no morals because he has no society.
A man who lives in society has morals because of the society he is related to.

If not having a beard is sinful and gets you stoned to death in your society then its a moral you have to hold. If theivery gets your hand cut off its a moral burden. Those morals don't apply to you if your society does not hold those ideals. If being female and not beiing circumcisied is dirty, then its a morale you will be submitted to. If thievery gets you shamed and murder gets you outcast then these are your morals. Change society and your morals change.

A man who does not hold to the bible cannot be immoral in its rules because its not part of his society. He can be Immoral in the eyes of others who hold to the bible, and can later recognise his actions as having been Immoral if his opinion has since changed, but at the point of making the original action he never knowing commited something immoral.

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg250714#msg250714
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2011, 01:42:29 am »
We probably are.

Note Morals are an Ethical construct not a personal construct. So something that is morally wrong like murder or theft may not pe personally wrong because the first is an evaluation made by the majority of a community and does not take into personal consideration on the commiter and the second is a personal act evaluated on on the experience of the commiter. This means that something can be morally wrong and the commiter is aware that the community will see his actions as wrong but in his evaluation he is making the correct descision and thus not accepting of morals and not morally wrong himslef.
Ah and there was the second disagreement
I believe in an objective morality (hence individuals have individual opinions of what is moral or immoral and they are often incorrect because they do not correlate 1:1 with the unknown independent standard[God,Truth,Reality,...])
You believe in a society relative morality?
Yes, thats what Morals are, societal relative. Without society there are no Morals.
A man who exists outside of a society has no morals because he has no society.
A man who lives in society has morals because of the society he is related to.

If not having a beard is sinful and gets you stoned to death in your society then its a moral you have to hold. If theivery gets your hand cut off its a moral burden. Those morals don't apply to you if your society does not hold those ideals. If being female and not beiing circumcisied is dirty, then its a morale you will be submitted to. If thievery gets you shamed and murder gets you outcast then these are your morals. Change society and your morals change.

A man who does not hold to the bible cannot be immoral in its rules because its not part of his society. He can be Immoral in the eyes of others who hold to the bible, and can later recognise his actions as having been Immoral if his opinion has since changed, but at the point of making the original action he never knowing commited something immoral.
Objective Morality is the theory that there exists a normative layer to reality that describes what ought and ought not.

For instance
Premise 1: Free Will exists and is inherently valuable.
Premise 2: Anything that is inherently valuable ought to be respected
Conclusion: Free Will ought to be respected.

Objective Morality then continues on to observe that Humans have opinions about what they ought or ought not to do. (Ex. Christianity)

Objective Morality continues on to say that opinions about what the True Standard for ought and ought not can be incorrect just as opinions about the shape of the earth can be incorrect.

So while a person's morales may be dependent on their culture/society, the true standard (if it exists) does not (unless moral relativism which has its own flaws).

"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
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Kael Hate

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg250757#msg250757
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2011, 02:28:08 am »
Objective Morality is the theory that there exists a normative layer to reality that describes what ought and ought not.

For instance
Premise 1: Free Will exists and is inherently valuable.
Premise 2: Anything that is inherently valuable ought to be respected
Conclusion: Free Will ought to be respected.

Objective Morality then continues on to observe that Humans have opinions about what they ought or ought not to do. (Ex. Christianity)

Objective Morality continues on to say that opinions about what the True Standard for ought and ought not can be incorrect just as opinions about the shape of the earth can be incorrect.

So while a person's morales may be dependent on their culture/society, the true standard (if it exists) does not (unless moral relativism which has its own flaws).
Free will does not exist. Everything you have done and will ever do is a result of a calculation based on experience. An illusion exists that if one is less affected by the morals of society that they have a free will, where this is not the case, its just that the personal experience outweighs the values forced on them by being part of society.

True standard being identical for everyone could only exist if we are all the same person and all have the same experience which is implausible being that we can't all be in the same place at the same time.

If we were both to look at an apple, we could indentify we were looking at the same thing but would not see the same thing because we are looking at it from different angles and different associations of interactive variables like light. The same is for morals, we put an apple in the table and you have to identify with it but depending on how you look at it and the things you have known before you get a different result.

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg250761#msg250761
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2011, 02:31:33 am »
Free will does not exist. Everything you have done and will ever do is a result of a calculation based on experience. An illusion exists that if one is less affected by the morals of society that they have a free will, where this is not the case, its just that the personal experience outweighs the values forced on them by being part of society.

True standard being identical for everyone could only exist if we are all the same person and all have the same experience which is implausible being that we can't all be in the same place at the same time.

If we were both to look at an apple, we could indentify we were looking at the same thing but would not see the same thing because we are looking at it from different angles and different associations of interactive variables like light. The same is for morals, we put an apple in the table and you have to identify with it but depending on how you look at it and the things you have known before you get a different result.
What caused you to claim that "Free will does not exist."?
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
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Kael Hate

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg250775#msg250775
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2011, 02:51:00 am »
What caused you to claim that "Free will does not exist."?
What makes you think it does?

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg250777#msg250777
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2011, 02:53:14 am »
What caused you to claim that "Free will does not exist."?
What makes you think it does?
Mostly because society operates with the assumption that it does and I find the idea (even if false) to be comforting.

To be exact the comfort comes from looking backward through this argument

P1.   If people don't have free will, then they are not morally responsible for their actions.
P2.   But, people are morally responsible for their actions.
C1.   So, people do have free will.

I would like to life as if people are morally responsible for their actions.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
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Kael Hate

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg250833#msg250833
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2011, 04:35:38 am »
What caused you to claim that "Free will does not exist."?
What makes you think it does?
Mostly because society operates with the assumption that it does and I find the idea (even if false) to be comforting.

To be exact the comfort comes from looking backward through this argument

P1.   If people don't have free will, then they are not morally responsible for their actions.
P2.   But, people are morally responsible for their actions.
C1.   So, people do have free will.

I would like to life as if people are morally responsible for their actions.
People don't have free will, they are not morally responsible for their actions, we are.
Its why we broadcast our programing to others, its why we tell others that murder and theft is wrong in our society rather than let people work it out for themselves.

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Re: Secularism and Church Attendance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18962.msg250834#msg250834
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2011, 04:45:33 am »
What caused you to claim that "Free will does not exist."?
What makes you think it does?
Mostly because society operates with the assumption that it does and I find the idea (even if false) to be comforting.

To be exact the comfort comes from looking backward through this argument

P1.   If people don't have free will, then they are not morally responsible for their actions.
P2.   But, people are morally responsible for their actions.
C1.   So, people do have free will.

I would like to life as if people are morally responsible for their actions.
People don't have free will, they are not morally responsible for their actions, we are.
I must have misunderstood ^this sentence. If we are morally responsible for the actions of others then we have free will.
Its why we broadcast our programing to others, its why we tell others that murder and theft is wrong in our society rather than let people work it out for themselves.
If there is no free will then we do not act, we happen. There is not motive behind our actions only a direct line from the first cause to the last effect.
I guess I could pull the old (modified) Pascal trick.
It is impossible to determine if Free Will does or does not exist
If free will does exist then there would be a moral responsibility for our actions.
If free will does not exist then there would not be a moral responsibility for our actions.
Ignoring an existent moral responsibility is worse than being programmed to believe in a nonexistent moral responsibility.
Therefore we ought to try to believe in an existent moral responsibility.
If free will exists then we have a chance of fulfilling our obligations.
If free will does not exist then we have not ventured anything unforetold.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

 

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