Secularism and Church Attendance

[Uppercut]

I don't find the accusation of "willful immorality" to be offensive without sufficient definitions for moral and immoral. If someone with morals I find reprehensible states that they find my morals reprehensible I'd find it more of a compliment than anything.

[OldTrees]

I don't find the accusation of "willful immorality" to be offensive without sufficient definitions for moral and immoral. If someone with morals I find reprehensible states that they find my morals reprehensible I'd find it more of a compliment than anything.

The accusation of willful immorality is that you willingly seek to do that that you know to be immoral.

[Uppercut]

I don't find the accusation of "willful immorality" to be offensive without sufficient definitions for moral and immoral. If someone with morals I find reprehensible states that they find my morals reprehensible I'd find it more of a compliment than anything.

The accusation of willful immorality is that you willingly seek to do that that you know to be immoral.

How can someone have objective knowledge of something thats subjective?

[OldTrees]

I don't find the accusation of "willful immorality" to be offensive without sufficient definitions for moral and immoral. If someone with morals I find reprehensible states that they find my morals reprehensible I'd find it more of a compliment than anything.

The accusation of willful immorality is that you willingly seek to do that that you know to be immoral.

How can someone have objective knowledge of something thats subjective?

There is disagreement about whether morality is objective, subjective or fictitious.

However my point is the claim "you are wrong and you know it" is insulting not because it questions the target's beliefs but rather because it accuses the target of intentionally choosing to seek to do (immoral actions/actions they believe to be immoral)

[BluePriest]

Do you consider it an insult if its true? Lets just say in a hypothetical situation, you were doing something you really did know was wrong, and someone said, "what youre doing is wrong, and you know it", would you feel insulted then? Just picking your brain, see what makes you tick

[OldTrees]

I would not be insulted in that circumstance. However I tend to not get insulted by insults. While I say the phrase is an insult, context in the circumstance can provide clues to the recipient as to the intent behind the words. If the recipient decides not to insulted based upon the context (signs of the intentions behind the phrase) then it is not insulting. However if the recipient is insulted then the phrase still is insulting.

[BluePriest]

Ah ok, jw. Thank you for your honesty

[Uppercut]

There is disagreement about whether morality is objective, subjective or fictitious.

Not really. Morality is what you percieve to be ethical. Its how you feel about an action, not the actual drive behind the action. Morality is nothing more than how one feels, and feelings toward things are are subjective in nature. Just like you can't make a joke that is objectively funny, you can't form a belief that is objectively moral.

One could make a valid argument for objective ethics, but thats getting way off topic.

Do you consider it an insult if its true? Lets just say in a hypothetical situation, you were doing something you really did know was wrong, and someone said, "what youre doing is wrong, and you know it", would you feel insulted then? Just picking your brain, see what makes you tick

I've never been in that situation so I honestly am not sure how I would respond. Gut feeling says I wouldn't feel insulted by someone telling me I did something which I actually did, but I honestly don't know.

I'm not even sure if someone can actually find something wrong and still want to do it. At the point that it isn't wrong enough to deter them from doing its obviously not that bad in their mind. Unless you mean to imply they want to do something wrong that is objectively wrong, like someone desperately wanting to divide by zero. I don't know what I'd think of that.

[Kael Hate]

 Man does not knowingly er or do wrong. At the point of choice of action it was correct so it was done and only after observation of the result can one decide what they had done was wrong.

[OldTrees]

 Man does not knowingly er or do wrong. At the point of choice of action it was correct so it was done and only after observation of the result can one decide what they had done was wrong.

This does not account for a person who gives into impulse while believing the impulse to be immoral. A thief's morals can be overcome by their greed and have the impulse cause the theft.

(Not all theft is described by the subtype above)

However you are right that man does not do what is wrong because it is wrong. There is always (I hope) another reason for the action.

[SeddyRocky]

Well morality is a higher state of consciousness. Primal urges are lower down the ladder but can overpower your moral bounds. Then you must either repent/restore balance, or adjust your moral standing to include the new action. A man beating his wife may find it to be wrong at first, but through rationalization (like: "they did it in the Bible, so I can too!") he may find it well within his moral bounds.

And just as Oldtrees, I think that there's always a reason for doing something which you may regard as wrong. Usually, it it because doing the other alternative/alternatives may seem even more wrong. (Thief example: Steal and gain money for drugs, or suffer the horrible, possibly fatal effects of doing a cold turkey).

[Kael Hate]

 Man does not knowingly er or do wrong. At the point of choice of action it was correct so it was done and only after observation of the result can one decide what they had done was wrong.

This does not account for a person who gives into impulse while believing the impulse to be immoral. A thief's morals can be overcome by their greed and have the impulse cause the theft.

(Not all theft is described by the subtype above)

However you are right that man does not do what is wrong because it is wrong. There is always (I hope) another reason for the action.

The thing is, the Thief thinks it is right to Steal.
Greed describes the reasoning but does not change the fact that he thought it was right to do the action.