Secularism and Church Attendance

[QuantumT]

I don't really see how it's different than the billboards that tell me that I'm going to hell.

I'm not particularly fond of that specific billboard, but I don't see why christians can do it and atheists can't.

I don't want to be misunderstood, so I'll clarify. I never said that the billboard was offensive because it was targeting Christians. I think it's offensive because it's targeting a specific group of people and calling them idiots. Ignore who wrote it and who it was addressed to... it's offensive in its own right. I am a Christian, and I can say that I have seen plenty of offensive billboards posted by other Christians with the typical "turn or burn" message. Whether or not the words on the billboard are true, the way it conveys the message is controversial and offensive. Nobody will listen you if you call them an idiot or a heathen.

I'll grant that. Like I said, I didn't really like that particular billboard. There are plenty of atheist billboards that I like much more. Some examples are:

"Imagine no religion"

"Don't Believe in God? You are not alone."

"There's probably no God... now stop worrying and enjoy your life."

These generally aren't received any better though.

I'm just tired of the hypocrisy really. I'm not saying you're engaging it, but hypocrisy is just something that bugs the crap out of me.

And yet under all this, I wonder how much we're falling victim to the politically correct movement.  Hard to tell with all the hot tempers.

Maybe we are a bit, but ultimately I think jmizzle7 is right. Flat out attacks aren't going to be effective anyway, and there probably isn't much point in being offensive just for the sake of being offensive.

[SeddyRocky]

To reply to the OP: As a swede having spent a year in the US, this is a question I too have been pondering. Church attendance in Sweden is below 10% and slowly dropping even more.

What I observed in Nebraska (pretty conservative state, but not in Utah's leauge I think) was that a lot of people were paper Christians. Going to church, but not abiding to the doctrines of their faith or even considering themselves to be believers. Parents bring their children with them to church (and to be fair, you can't leave little children home alone) so they just grow up with it. It's a Walmarts kind of religion: plentiful and cheap, but not always that good a quality. As said before, going to church is an integrated part of society and divering from the norm is usually not beneficial.

That's not to say that there aren't people of faith attending church, or that they are even a minority, because that's not really something we can measure.

Oh and insults are rarely, if ever, an effective form of communication, and I think people know that. But what's percieved as insults vary from person to person. But jmizzle, I disagree that spiritual beliefs would be a core part of a person. Here, were spirituality is very rare and not focused on, our cores are more related to our values, morals and personalities. That can be connected to religion, but stands just as well on its own.

[jmizzle7]

But jmizzle, I disagree that spiritual beliefs would be a core part of a person. Here, were spirituality is very rare and not focused on, our cores are more related to our values, morals and personalities. That can be connected to religion, but stands just as well on its own.

Of course spirituality isn't the only core part of a person's character. However, everyone has a moral code and set of virtues to which they subscribe. Spiritual belief is a part of the wider, values-based spectrum.

[cambovenzi]

I am not religious anymore, but was raised by Catholics.
Once in a great while i show up at church with them. Although its very rare and i try to avoid any religious bologna (or any other religious deli meats for that matter
Is that close to what you were looking for?

[Scaredgirl]

Santa Claus? Really? We're not talking about a secular holiday mascot that lives in a cottage in the North Pole with little elf workers and reindeer that fly. We are talking about spiritual beliefs that hold deep meaning in one's life. People have waged war over stuff like this. Why are you surprised that someone found a billboard offensive?

I think that the point Daxx was trying to make was that why are some beliefs considered off limits, while others you can ridicule all you want. At what point does a belief become "legit" enough so that talking bad about it is highly offensive? It's silly to be honest.

I like the scientific approach because you can question theories all you want without other scientist getting all mad and refusing to see the facts. It's a more pure form of "religion" where everyone is searching for the same truth.

[jmizzle7]

Santa Claus? Really? We're not talking about a secular holiday mascot that lives in a cottage in the North Pole with little elf workers and reindeer that fly. We are talking about spiritual beliefs that hold deep meaning in one's life. People have waged war over stuff like this. Why are you surprised that someone found a billboard offensive?

I think that the point Daxx was trying to make was that why are some beliefs considered off limits, while others you can ridicule all you want. At what point does a belief become "legit" enough so that talking bad about it is highly offensive? It's silly to be honest.

I like the scientific approach because you can question theories all you want without other scientist getting all mad and refusing to see the facts. It's a more pure form of "religion" where everyone is searching for the same truth.

Questioning one's faith isn't a bad thing. In fact, it's healthy. What crosses the line is when you specifically target someone or a group of people publicly for their core values and beliefs. At the very least, it makes people uncomfortable, and in most cases, will offend. It's just the nature of the beast, so to speak.

[OldTrees]

Questioning a faith is not a bad thing. Making people with strongly rooted beliefs examine those beliefs is not inherently wrong either.

However I do think that claiming that the group knew they were wrong and were lying to themselves about it is crossing the line.

In my opinion the worse insult is the insult that you knowingly want to do what you think is wrong.

Let us consider the phrase "You are wrong and you know it" when it comes to morality.
1) The claim "You are wrong" is that the person is acting in a way that is inconsistent with the objective truth (not talking about objective belief here) of right and wrong.
2) The claim "You know it" is that the person knows the objective truth of right and wrong. (High praise indeed)
1 and 2) The claim "You are wrong and you know it" is that the person knowingly acts in a way inconsistent with the objective truth of right and wrong.

In other words the claim "You are wrong and you know it" is saying that "You want to do what you think is wrong"

This claim of willful immorality is a terrible insult and that is why it is much more offensive than "You are wrong".

[Kael Hate]

I have had religious folk come to my door and tell me not to play card games, including elements, because drawing cards is an act of divining and spiritism. I asked if we could choose choose not to acknowledge and mystical properties and play it for the game it is and was told, "Being exposed to it will change you".

This puzzled me and I responded with "ah, thankyou for appllying witness to the fact that all results and issues are pre-determined and that free choice is but an illusion under the fact that we are not omniscient. Such is that we are programmed by our experiences like robots, god will either change my fate or leave me on the path that I am currently following and either way belief in him is unimportant and so is the result of playing a card game."

She was shocked, "No, you have free choice" she beamed, making sure her young maybe 10yr old companion could see her jesture.

I responded with "well choose not to acknowledge the spiritism" which she followed with "O but you can't"

This loop continued for several minutes before I asked the child a question. "This is your religion too?"
He nodded.
I asked him another question "How many other religions and sciences have you studied?"

He couldn't answer.
My final statement "Until you have experienced other religions and sciences, how can you know they are wrong. If you are free to make a choice you have taken the only option that which has first been told to you. If you are programed then you are just following what you are told and truely know nothing. In either case should you not look further into the world before declaring what is right and wrong?"

The child smiled. He knew more of what I said than the elderly woman preeching to me. She haulled him off by his shoulder and I have not seen anything of their group since.





I think he was pressured to follow this religion even though he clearly questioned it.
I don't care what you believe in if it makes you feel good, but I do care if to feel good you have to make others feel bad.
I will openly tell you religion doesn't matter to god if he exists, it only matters to men.
I don't belive in christmas, capitalist or religious wise but I get pressured by non-churchies and churchies alike to follow the traditions.

I am an Australian in Australia.


IMO, Religions prey on people forcing one sided information on them to make their pack strong whereas athiests and agnostics tend not to do so because they do not have the same pack mentality. This is not a firm situation, sometimes athiests are the ones forcing one-sided information, but religious groups are known more for it because of their longer lasting and stronger organisations.

[johannhowitzer]

I have a new respect for you, Kael; not many people would be able to express such a truth so clearly under pressure, and in a way that a child could understand.

IMO, Religions prey on people forcing one sided information on them to make their pack strong whereas athiests and agnostics tend not to do so because they do not have the same pack mentality. This is not a firm situation, sometimes athiests are the ones forcing one-sided information, but religious groups are known more for it because of their longer lasting and stronger organisations.

I'm sure you realize this already, as it's obvious you think things through thoroughly (th th th), but this is the rule, and there are exceptions.  Some religious people I have met are far from being concerned about strengthening the "pack" - rather the reason they seek converts is out of concern for those who do not have what they see as fundamental to life.  This is especially true of some of the more charity-centered Protestant Christian churches, who forgo door-to-door evangelism in favor of serving at soup kitchens, and don't bother keeping a count of how much the pack has grown lately.

It's funny... the video linked in the OP shows, from my perspective anyway, such an "atheist forcing one-sided information."  All I could think when I was watching him (apart from how Bill was just making himself look totally stupid) was, "I didn't know atheists did evangelism."

[jmizzle7]

I have had religious folk come to my door and tell me not to play card games, including elements, because drawing cards is an act of divining and spiritism. I asked if we could choose choose not to acknowledge and mystical properties and play it for the game it is and was told, "Being exposed to it will change you".

This puzzled me and I responded with "ah, thankyou for appllying witness to the fact that all results and issues are pre-determined and that free choice is but an illusion under the fact that we are not omniscient. Such is that we are programmed by our experiences like robots, god will either change my fate or leave me on the path that I am currently following and either way belief in him is unimportant and so is the result of playing a card game."

She was shocked, "No, you have free choice" she beamed, making sure her young maybe 10yr old companion could see her jesture.

I responded with "well choose not to acknowledge the spiritism" which she followed with "O but you can't"

This loop continued for several minutes before I asked the child a question. "This is your religion too?"
He nodded.
I asked him another question "How many other religions and sciences have you studied?"

He couldn't answer.
My final statement "Until you have experienced other religions and sciences, how can you know they are wrong. If you are free to make a choice you have taken the only option that which has first been told to you. If you are programed then you are just following what you are told and truely know nothing. In either case should you not look further into the world before declaring what is right and wrong?"

The child smiled. He knew more of what I said than the elderly woman preeching to me. She haulled him off by his shoulder and I have not seen anything of their group since.

I think he was pressured to follow this religion even though he clearly questioned it.
I don't care what you believe in if it makes you feel good, but I do care if to feel good you have to make others feel bad.
I will openly tell you religion doesn't matter to god if he exists, it only matters to men.
I don't belive in christmas, capitalist or religious wise but I get pressured by non-churchies and churchies alike to follow the traditions.

I am an Australian in Australia.

IMO, Religions prey on people forcing one sided information on them to make their pack strong whereas athiests and agnostics tend not to do so because they do not have the same pack mentality. This is not a firm situation, sometimes athiests are the ones forcing one-sided information, but religious groups are known more for it because of their longer lasting and stronger organisations.

Wow. Amen to that!

[BluePriest]

In other words the claim "You are wrong and you know it" is saying that "You want to do what you think is wrong"

This claim of willful immorality is a terrible insult and that is why it is much more offensive than "You are wrong".

I actually know a lot of people that will admit they knowingly do things that are wrong. I love that tag!
I dont mind peoples comments I see on this forum (to a certain extent). The main thing that bugs me that I see here is all the Christians that pretty much start flame wars. Theres nothing more annoying than trying to represent something, and then have someone come and be a horrible representative.

I do get annoyed at generalizations (which I see fairly often here, and is something we all do in one way or another, sometimes without realizing it) but those dont bother me nearly as much as the people who come and fit into those generalizations lol.

[OldTrees]

Yes some people through insufficient strength or circumstances do what they think is wrong. This does not change the strength of the insult when it is taken as an insult
The accusation of willful immorality is terrible but not something that I have seen on this forum or to be frank anywhere. I have only heard of its existence.

The most annoying thing I have found is similar in effect to what you are talking about BluePriest

The hardest thing for me to read is one or both sides of an argument not understanding the position of the other side. Now to clarify what I mean by understand. First is to understand that the other side believes what they believe meaning that there is a convincing point of view that would lead to that belief. It is not enough to know the argument of the other side, what is necessary is to understand the mindset and world-view that lead to that belief. This terribly difficult skill is the most important tool in seeking to communicate to the other side.