Religion is a dirty word. XP

[Sir Rebrl]

Organized religion serves one function that cannot be served without it. It uses oppressive fear tactics to keep people obedient. "Don't do this or you'll go to Hell and be tortured for eternity!" "Accept the Lord into your heart or face damnation!" "All that aside, remember God always loves you!"

Bullocks. Would a loving God bring us into this life only to damn us to Hell if we don't follow his every instruction? More than that, why give us free will only to say excessive exercise of it will lead to eternal torment? Most of all, would a loving God auto-damn every human on this planet who lives without ever hearing word one about Him?

No. No way. Technically this still leaves the possibility of a sadistic, hateful God, but what's the point of believing in that? If God is sadistic and hateful then his greatest laughs will come from watching the faithful obedient scream as they burn.


How many people follow their religion blindly, hollowly, with no feelings inside that faith may stand on? Personally, most theists I've known were so simply to not go to Hell. I've actually been asked "Is being atheist worth it when you might go to Hell? Why not just believe?"

Those who asked that never understood my answer: "You don't believe any more than I do. It's not that simple. I can't believe in something I don't feel. Not seeing is one thing, but to not feel the presence of a Lord within... I can't believe in a Lord who's presence and effect cannot be felt. I believe in the idea, just like you do, because the idea undeniably exists. But I don't believe in the fact, and no matter how often you say you do, you don't either."

To be clear, anyone with an experiential foundation for their faith is exempt from much of that reply.


Over the past year and a few months I have felt things beyond the physical. I have had spiritual - not religious, spiritual - experiences profound and clear enough for me to build a solid belief system upon. Most importantly, everything surrounding the central tenets of my belief system is flexible to accommodate for new experience.

Some say religion gives people hope. Gives them the strength to make it through each day. That's fantastic, and I would never take that away from someone. But religion is not necessary for that. Just look around you and what you see and feel and think is enough to build a vague spirituality upon, enough to give hope and strength.

If you don't quite see and feel it, I'll walk you through the basics.
Does free will exist? If it doesn't, there is no point to life. So we assume it does. Now, based on the action-reaction model of how things work, how can that allow for free will? It doesn't. Logically, there must be something beyond the physical at work here, allowing us to think and make decisions. I choose to refer to consciousness as God Energy in Action, though I by no means believe in a God consisting of a single, separate consciousness. Rather, God is how I refer to the collective Energies of the Universe and Beyond, from Thought Energies to the slower light and fire to the slowest, matter.

Now, look around you. Look at what mankind has accomplished. Truly, we have accomplished so much more than one ever considers on a regular basis. It's staggering how far we've come. Then look at nature; it's beautiful and intense and so vast and complex, and truly awe-inspiring. For all we know, there is even more we don't. We know more about space than about our own oceans and we don't even know if there's other life out there! (Though the theoretical odds say "Yes there is!")

This last part may not be for everybody, but it's how it started for me. Go be a sober raver for a night. Find a show where there's gonna be good DJs and a lot of people just dancing their asses off. Get right in the middle of them and listen to the music. Feel it. Let it move you without thinking about it, just give it control of your body. Look at the people around you and watch them dance and still don't think about how your own body is moving. Think about how you react to the music, and the people around you, and how they react to the music and to you, and think about how the DJ's energy reacts to the audience as a whole. Feel the influence, the energy, moving from the DJ into the audience, into you, back out into the audience and from them back to the DJ. Feel the energy of every living being in the room flowing and mixing together as everyone is feeling, sharing the same experience - giving themselves to the music and just dancing like time does not exist and the show is all there is.


I know the physical is not all there is. I have my beliefs about what came before and what comes after this mortal existence. I have hope and strength. Know what I don't have? Fear of Hell. The only Hell you'll ever find is the one you create by the power of your belief. Remember, your thoughts are God Energy in Action and that's some powerful stuff.


Anyway, I kinda got into rambling there. ^_^;
Discuss!

[Daxx]

Does free will exist? If it doesn't, there is no point to life.

There's your first problem. You're assuming that something is true because it is comforting to you. Why must free will exist?

This last part may not be for everybody, but it's how it started for me. Go be a sober raver for a night. Find a show where there's gonna be good DJs and a lot of people just dancing their asses off. Get right in the middle of them and listen to the music. Feel it. Let it move you without thinking about it, just give it control of your body. Look at the people around you and watch them dance and still don't think about how your own body is moving. Think about how you react to the music, and the people around you, and how they react to the music and to you, and think about how the DJ's energy reacts to the audience as a whole. Feel the influence, the energy, moving from the DJ into the audience, into you, back out into the audience and from them back to the DJ. Feel the energy of every living being in the room flowing and mixing together as everyone is feeling, sharing the same experience - giving themselves to the music and just dancing like time does not exist and the show is all there is.

Congratulations. You have experienced crowd-based euphoria. It's pretty heavily ingrained into the human psyche; you'll experience similar things whether you go to a worship session in church, a rock concert, a rave, a football match or a protest rally. People even get addicted to it. The human brain is an extremely odd organ; unusual situations, mental illness, drugs, physical illness and lots of other phenomena can cause anything from altering moods to hallucinations. The brain is essentially a machine, and not one which we would consider to be particularly bug-free.

Enjoy your pantheism, but remember to think critically about your personal experiences.

[Sir Rebrl]

If free will doesn't exist, nothing we do matters to us in any real way cause it's all cause and effect and our desires have no real bearing. That's as pointless to believe in as a God who's sadistic and hateful. Both are possible, both are wastes of time to believe in because there's no point in continuing contemplation past that point.

Congratulations, you're cynical. I've been to church, I've been to concerts, I've been to all sorts of things like that. I've experiences simple crowd-based euphoria, and this was something more. I have thought critically about all my personal experiences. I always have since childhood for reasons I don't care to go into in depth right now.

Can you kindly explain why you'd rather argue that it may all be pointless and fake instead of trusting in the positive things one can feel to their core? I mean, really.

[Daxx]

Can you kindly explain why you'd rather argue that it may all be pointless and fake instead of trusting in the positive things one can feel to their core? I mean, really.

Wanting something to be true doesn't make it so. Just because you find the idea of a lack of free will distasteful does not constitute a disproof.

I'd prefer to set stock by rational skepticism than airy-fairy "it feels nice" bullshit with no evidence to back it up whatsoever.

It seems you're just taking comfort in things because you'd prefer it if they were true. That's a pretty poor method of philosophical inquiry.

[Glitch]

NOw now Daxx I'ma let you finish, but believing whatever the hell you want rocks too.

Now look, I'm not the center of the actual universe, but I'm the center of the philosophical universe.  I cannot prove anything exists besides my mind.  I think, therefore, I am.  Similarly, I think you think, therefore, I think you are.  But I don't know for sure!

Following that logic, the only things that exist are things I personally believe exist.  So go find a DJ and party hard.  Philosophy is a load of speculation anyway.

[Sir Rebrl]

I never said not wanting something to be true constitutes a disproof. In fact, I've repeated that the ideas I don't like are still possibilities. The reason I disregard them, is as I said, because if I assume them to be true any further philosophical thought becomes pointless (imo). I'd like to spend more time thinking than just that, so I assume the other to be true and continue on with possibilities from there.

It seems like you claim all focused speculation to just be taking comfort in likeable ideas because contemplating anything beyond the physical evidence is a bit unsettling and big for you.

[Daxx]

I never said not wanting something to be true constitutes a disproof. In fact, I've repeated that the ideas I don't like are still possibilities. The reason I disregard them, is as I said, because if I assume them to be true any further philosophical thought becomes pointless (imo). I'd like to spend more time thinking than just that, so I assume the other to be true and continue on with possibilities from there.

Man I would love to live in a world where I chose what was real and what wasn't just because I like it. Hey! It's raining puppies and candy outside!

More seriously, you are falling foul of quite an important form of cognitive bias, specifically wishful thinking. Fundamentally you are refusing to actually analyse the primary assumption you are making because for a spurious reason. The fact that you believe that a lack of free will curtails philosophical discussion does not actually prove that you have free will.

It seems like you claim all focused speculation to just be taking comfort in likeable ideas because contemplating anything beyond the physical evidence is a bit unsettling and big for you.

Have you met my friends Mr. Flying Spaghetti Monster and Mr. Invisible Pink Unicorn? I assure you that there is no physical evidence that substantiates either of their existences. However they both clearly exist because I say they do.

[Sir Rebrl]

You keep accusing me of claiming proofs and disproofs. When did I ever claim either? I didn't. I clearly stated I was assuming one of multiple possibilities for the sake of my train of thought.

If I were engaging in wishful thinking, believe me, you'd know. I'm an imaginative sob, and when I get into wishful thinking it is out there.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is as real as the Christian God, my friend. XD

Ideas are very real and powerful, and they hold as much sway over people's actions as anything concrete. That's not the argument here, however.


Did I ever say I was choosing what's real? Nope nope. I said, again, I assume certain things for the sake of my thought train and I choose to personally believe that which I feel to be true. And do I assume anything that can be disproved? Nope nope. Cause that'd be as pointless as assuming a lack of free will, though not as depressing. More enters the realm, still untouched, of wishful thinking.


Now, do you have any solid arguments besides "There's no physical proof!" or claiming I said things I didn't? You know, something original, valid, and relevant?

[Daytripper]

I do not understand your argumentation at all. Free will or no free will, does it have any bearing on the existence of a deity? I say it doesn't. In fact I barely understand your points.

[Sir Rebrl]

Somehow I doubt you were trying very hard to follow the points...

Anyway, my original argument is that religion serves only to oppress the masses with fear tactics (do as we say or you'll burn in Hell for eternity!).

All of its positive functions, ie hope and strength, can be achieved by an easily grounded personal spirituality.


However you gathered I was connecting the existence of free will directly to the existence of a deity, I will never know.

[Daytripper]

Does free will exist? If it doesn't, there is no point to life. So we assume it does. Now, based on the action-reaction model of how things work, how can that allow for free will? It doesn't. Logically, there must be something beyond the physical at work here, allowing us to think and make decisions. I choose to refer to consciousness as God Energy in Action, though I by no means believe in a God consisting of a single, separate consciousness. Rather, God is how I refer to the collective Energies of the Universe and Beyond, from Thought Energies to the slower light and fire to the slowest, matter.

To me, this clearly says free will is associated with something supernatural. You specify this as God a few sentences later.  Also it isnt clear to me at all why free will is logically impossible without supernatural backup.

Anyway, my original argument is that religion serves only to oppress the masses with fear tactics (do as we say or you'll burn in Hell for eternity!).

Used to be A way, but it is not the only function. Also modern churches step away from this, if they are smart. Why threaten, if people do not believe? It is a bread from the own bakery. Also it is a logical fallacy to say fear will enable belief. It enables fear. Intellectually, it is hot air. People start to realize this.

All of its positive functions, ie hope and strength, can be achieved by an easily grounded personal spirituality.

Such a state can also be reached with meditation. In other words, it is religion, a practice. Something with no bearing on the supernatural per se.

However you gathered I was connecting the existence of free will directly to the existence of a deity, I will never know.

However you gathered people would not think this, based on your explanation, I will never know.

[Sir Rebrl]

I choose to refer to consciousness as God Energy in Action, though I by no means believe in a God consisting of a single, separate consciousness. Rather, God is how I refer to the collective Energies of the Universe and Beyond, from Thought Energies to the slower light and fire to the slowest, matter.

...Yah. Pay attention to the entire paragraph if your going to attempt to use any of it in an argument.

And free will requires something beyond cause and effect because otherwise all of your thoughts and actions are just cause and effect and were determined at the beginning of time.


Why are you arguing that it's a logical fallacy to say fear enables belief? My point in making this topic was to move away from religions because they use fear. Your argument on this point is not only irrelevant but I also agree with it.

Such a state can also be reached with meditation. In other words, it is religion, a practice. Something with no bearing on the supernatural per se.

... Wait, what is it you're referring to as religion? And I never said a vague spirituality was necessary for hope and strength, I used it as one particular example as something that could completely stand in for religion and doesn't use fear.

However you gathered people would not think this, based on your explanation, I will never know.

Well I guess I expected people to actually read the entire post if they were going to bother thinking about it. I do not believe in a deity, I believe that the energies of the universe and beyond at every level collectively are something that can be most easily described and understood as "God." Not a deity. An energy/consciousness-collective.




I'd like to point out free and clear from the rest of my post, so it's really obvious, the point of this topic was never to discuss my spirituality. If it were, I would have titled it more appropriately. The point was that religion is outdated and fear-wielding and has no positive effect that is exclusive to itself.

So far, nobody's argued against that really at all, which I find vastly amusing. Instead you've all been debating the validity of a single person's personally built belief system. Kinda makes me feel more important than the whole of religion.