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Offline Absol

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1063547#msg1063547
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2013, 01:19:39 am »
A bit off-topic, but as my friend said it, "religion is like addiction these days".
And indeed, that's my reason.
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1063551#msg1063551
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2013, 01:32:20 am »
And why do you think it is addicting? (assuming you agree with your friend) [I did ask people to explain in my original posting =)]
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Offline artimies7

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1063554#msg1063554
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2013, 01:45:13 am »
I believe in God because the universe is too complicated to have created itself.

That, and there was this one time with this ceiling fan, but that's not provable or disprovable.

And you guys can't change my opinion. No matter what.
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1063559#msg1063559
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2013, 01:51:43 am »
Okay, see what you said is much more on what I call the 'logical side.' (good)

Do you see how your reason differs from 'I want to go to heaven?'

Most people who are religious cannot honestly say the universe is too complicated because their belief rests on bad reasoning which will come to light through trials.
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Offline artimies7

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1063563#msg1063563
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2013, 02:03:45 am »
Okay, see what you said is much more on what I call the 'logical side.' (good)

Do you see how your reason differs from 'I want to go to heaven?'

Most people who are religious cannot honestly say the universe is too complicated because their belief rests on bad reasoning which will come to light through trials.

Is my belief based on bad reasoning? I don't think so. I mean, my (modestly) unfathomable mind cannot fathom all the probabilities that come from the assumptions that evolutionary scientists claim.

And is 'I want to go to Heaven' a bad reason? I mean, one who believes for this reason will probably act better than one who does not believe, and if he's wrong there'll be nobody to say 'I told you so.'
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1063576#msg1063576
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2013, 03:17:03 am »
No, I said you reasoning is good lol.

The issue with believingg because you want heaven says two things:

1) you don't really love god (moral character issue), you want what God can give you (marrying someone for their wealth)

2) Treating religion more like a hope than truth.

Example: some people can't deal with the fact they will die and be buried, so they believe in heaven to get their mind at ease.
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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1063620#msg1063620
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2013, 04:50:02 am »
No trees. You need to see your logic. Each time you say because, you are saying the first thing as your conclusion and each thing after a 'because' is your premise so what I pointed out is exactly what you said.

Also, your last post is circular logic.
(A<-B<-C->B->A is not circular. It was redundant to decrease the likelihood of misunderstanding. It failed.)

Just follow what I say and you'll be logically fine (I specialize in logical form)

1) here is what you said:

Most of the time, people are extremely resistant to change.
     Why are people resistant most of the time?
Because there is no reason to change at that time.
     Why was there no reason to change at that time?
Because there is rarely a reason to change.

2) Let me put in logical format: (categorical syllogism)

p1: People who don't change beliefs are people with rarely an reasons to.
No. This is nothing like what I said.
p2: People who don't change beliefs are people who have also have no reason to change at the time.
This is closer but still nothing like what I said
C: Therefore: All people who don't change beliefs are people who are extremely resistant to change.
This is nothing like what I said

Unfortunately this is fallacious since you fail to have 2 middle terms and your minor premise is illustrated twice as well as your major premise is not displayed at all.
You need to stop, take an effort to understand, and then evaluate if you agree or disagree. Do not assume you will disagree nor assume that your initial interpretation is accurate.

So a completely unrelated strawman argument was fallacious. Well done North, well done.

Your current mistakes:
1) You skipped over the word "mostly". There is a huge logical difference from "Most mammals are not dogs" and "Mammals are not dogs".
2) You changed "resistant to change" to "do not change". Again this is a huge difference. Not nearly as large as confusing "Most" and "All" but still important.
3) You mistook an explanation for an argument. They use different forms. Compare the difference with "explaining how gravity causes objects to fall" with "proving gravity causes objects to fall".

Sidenote: I can only give you so many chances before the Bayesian evidence points to you intentionally misrepresenting what I write.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 04:52:51 am by OldTrees »
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1063721#msg1063721
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2013, 04:20:02 pm »
trees:

1) you used the word 'because' which makes all statements after a because (used twice) premises (true fact)

2) therefore, since nothing else was added, your first line is the conclusion. (true fact)

3) the final 2-4 lines were only just explanations of clearing up what you said, so they are not included (you have taken a logic class right?)

If you would like to clarify, it could also be written as:

p1) is exactly what you said. This is standard: turning what you said into categorical form. You need to re-read what you posted.

p2) Same as #1.

conclusion: same as I posted before. Even if we change to 'most' which becomes 'some' in standard form, you commit the fallacy of missing too many terms, but more importantly, draw a particular conclusion from 2 universal premises=fallacy even from Aristotles point of view.

Quit saying I am arguing fiction and re-word if you don't agree. I even showed what I wrote to one of my old professors and they even agreed you need to re word big time.

You are defending yourself with explanations such as 'this word changes everything' and the like. What you presented is an argument by the way. You may say this is an explanation, but if someone doesn't agree, they can argue you are wrong=simples.

No trees. You need to see your logic. Each time you say because, you are saying the first thing as your conclusion and each thing after a 'because' is your premise so what I pointed out is exactly what you said.

Also, your last post is circular logic.
(A<-B<-C->B->A is not circular. It was redundant to decrease the likelihood of misunderstanding. It failed.)

Just follow what I say and you'll be logically fine (I specialize in logical form)

1) here is what you said:

Most of the time, people are extremely resistant to change.
     Why are people resistant most of the time?
Because there is no reason to change at that time.
     Why was there no reason to change at that time?
Because there is rarely a reason to change.

2) Let me put in logical format: (categorical syllogism)

p1: People who don't change beliefs are people with rarely an reasons to.
No. This is nothing like what I said.
p2: People who don't change beliefs are people who have also have no reason to change at the time.
This is closer but still nothing like what I said
C: Therefore: All people who don't change beliefs are people who are extremely resistant to change.
This is nothing like what I said

Unfortunately this is fallacious since you fail to have 2 middle terms and your minor premise is illustrated twice as well as your major premise is not displayed at all.
You need to stop, take an effort to understand, and then evaluate if you agree or disagree. Do not assume you will disagree nor assume that your initial interpretation is accurate.

So a completely unrelated strawman argument was fallacious. Well done North, well done.

Your current mistakes:
1) You skipped over the word "mostly". There is a huge logical difference from "Most mammals are not dogs" and "Mammals are not dogs".
2) You changed "resistant to change" to "do not change". Again this is a huge difference. Not nearly as large as confusing "Most" and "All" but still important.
3) You mistook an explanation for an argument. They use different forms. Compare the difference with "explaining how gravity causes objects to fall" with "proving gravity causes objects to fall".

Sidenote: I can only give you so many chances before the Bayesian evidence points to you intentionally misrepresenting what I write.

1) wouldn't matter as your argument is still fallicious.
2) Re read buddy, I did not re word what you said here.
3) As I said before, don't post explanations that are not assumed facts=arguments.
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1063724#msg1063724
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2013, 04:22:50 pm »
Oh, and by the way, it is circular logic.
 You start with A, end with A. Simples (that is by definition what circular logic is)
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Offline Furby

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1063733#msg1063733
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2013, 04:45:41 pm »
Sorry, found this thread and just got done reading the posts.

Trees, I think North just wants you to label your terms to see the issue.

Like this:

People extremely resistant to change=A
No reason to change to at the time=B
Rarely a reason to change=C

Then, I think North said it like this:

C, therefore, B, therefore A. (which is = to saying A, because B, because C).

And I am unsure about North's middle term added (trees--->look up the work enthymeme), but @trees, I think you should add some more terms so your explanation as you put it makes more sense.

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1063748#msg1063748
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2013, 05:19:46 pm »
The only logical argument that I know of for believing in god is Pascal's Wager.

Since the topic is "Reasons for believing" and Naesala brought up Pascal's Wager, I hope it is not considered off-topic to this discussion to focus on that.

A major error I see in Pascal's logic is that he presupposes that only 1 god could possibly exist and only 1 religin may govern how the believer has to live to gain the infinite happiness (in heaven after death), thus the +infinite gain versus finite loss agrument in opposition to the -infinity loss versus finite gain. However, it is well known that there are many religions and some of them require contradictory life-styles to each other, therefore it is impossible for any person to fulfill all requirements -- not to mention that several religions explicitly forbid believing in others. Once the binary logic is changed to the real multi-choice question the equation changes: whichever religion / god you choose to believe, you will be judged negatively by others, thus gaining -infinite punishment if any of those other religions are correct. Thus the worst-case scenario is equally bad for believers as for atheists.
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Offline Foraker

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Re: Reasons for believing? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48687.msg1063751#msg1063751
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2013, 05:23:59 pm »
Just have to say: Russell's teapot
Here's the wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

The main reason for a person to believe is the education he/she had.
The other reasons are, that the central questions of life are ''answered'' if you believe.
For example death and existence itself.
And such a confraternity gives a person safety and strengthens the social cohesion.

The reason for a society to have a main religion is control and opinion-forming.
Which isn't that bad at all, because it brings stability.
This reason is outdated, because all of those functions are now fulfilled by the state.

Would be nice to talk more about such and almost similar things in ''Off-Topic Discussions''.
But you guys don't know, how often I had to use a dictionary for this post.  :P
Plus I don't want to know how many grammar mistakes are there.
But I think, the post gathers my oppinion well enough.

 

blarg: