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Offline Zso_Zso

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Re: Atheism vs Agnostic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49548.msg1075137#msg1075137
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 05:52:02 pm »
Correction:

Atheist: Does not believe in gods
Agnostic: Does not believe you can know if gods exist or don't exist

How is that different from what I said? I mean your full breakdown was certainly more specific, and probably better phrased, but still...

It is quite different, here is what you said:

The short version:

Atheists are against religion and they tend to lead arguments against it. They could be described as Anti-religion.
Agnostics could not care less about religion, they just don't believe. They are not against it, but not for it either.
...

Contrast the following statement with your definition:

...
There are in fact religions such as Buddhism that do not believe in a God.
...

As you can see, your definition contradicts Buddhism as a religion. While OldTrees' definition fits it just fine.
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Re: Atheism vs Agnostic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49548.msg1075140#msg1075140
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 05:57:19 pm »
Correction:

Atheist: Does not believe in gods
Agnostic: Does not believe you can know if gods exist or don't exist

How is that different from what I said? I mean your full breakdown was certainly more specific, and probably better phrased, but still...
Your definition of Atheist was the definition for Antireligion not the definition for Atheist.
Note: Antitheist is not the same as Antireligion.
Your definition of Agnostic excluded many Agnostic Atheists and most Agnostic Theists.

False.
Atheists are of the belief that there is no God.  While many might have a negative view of religion, such a view is not implied by the belief of Atheism.  There are in fact religions such as Buddhism that do not believe in a God.

Agnostics do not know whether there is a God or not (though most I've met tend to lean towards not) but also often hold a negative view of religions that hold so firmly that there is one.
Atheism is the lack of belief in a god. You will be swiftly corrected if you erroneously claim atheism is a belief. Some Buddhists are atheist.

It is true that Agnostics tend to have a negative view of people that claim to know if god exists or not.

"belief" has some connotations, but what else do i call it? "conclusion?" isn't it most buddhists are atheists?
It isn't a conclusion either. Deer are atheist since they do not have a belief in gods. Yet they did not conclude that. It is merely the lack of a belief.
I do not know the ratio of theist to atheist buddhists. So I make no claim to that effect.
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Offline JyiberTopic starter

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Re: Atheism vs Agnostic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49548.msg1075142#msg1075142
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 06:13:35 pm »
Well, welcome to the gray area, where everything is not quite what it isn't, even though it is... but not really.

The definition I came up with was just a result of personal experience with meeting these kinds of people. I should get in the habit of googling and memorizing random trivial things, so that I don't look inept in front of people who know random trivial things  ;D 
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Re: Atheism vs Agnostic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49548.msg1075188#msg1075188
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2013, 08:52:31 pm »
From my personal experience: In general

If someone avoids answering if they are atheist or theist, they are probably an agnostic
If someone answers that they are an atheist, they are probably an atheist
If someone tells you they are an atheist without being asked, they probably are an antitheist in proportion to how strongly they label themselves as atheist

However these are just very rough guidelines on how people I have come across have acted.
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Re: Atheism vs Agnostic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49548.msg1079596#msg1079596
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2013, 02:45:02 pm »
This should clear the air a little.

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Re: Atheism vs Agnostic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49548.msg1079639#msg1079639
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2013, 05:46:38 pm »
OldTrees' definitions are the ones I've seen most often, but since other people have different definitions, I prefer not to even use "Atheist" and "Agnostic". They're too confusing because there are no standardized definitions used by everyone.

I prefer Dawkins' Spectrum of Theistic Probability.

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Offline Zso_Zso

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Re: Atheism vs Agnostic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49548.msg1079646#msg1079646
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2013, 06:10:46 pm »
RR: Those are presented as 7 discrete points along a single dimension axis, i.e. a shade of gray type of categorisation.
The video above explains nicely that agnostic is not the state in the middle, but its an orthogonal dimension. Someone can be agnostic theist and there are also non-agnostic atheists.
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Re: Atheism vs Agnostic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49548.msg1079675#msg1079675
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2013, 07:16:48 pm »
Root: Those are presented as 7 discrete points along a single dimension axis, i.e. a shade of gray type of categorisation.
The video above explains nicely that agnostic is not the state in the middle, but its an orthogonal dimension. Someone can be agnostic theist and there are also non-agnostic atheists.

The Dawkins' Spectrum is adequate because it encompasses everyone's views on God. Those who call themselves agnostic theists would be a 2 or 3. As for the gnostic atheist, it depends on how "know" is defined. If he defines "know" as absolute certainty, then he would be a 7. If knowledge instead accounts for the possibility of incorrectness, then he would be a 6.

I have a problem with the entire definition of "knowledge" because its definition varies so significantly depending on who is using it and what the context is. In the everyday context, knowledge is simply strong belief that can be wrong. For example, one might say "I know I will be home in an hour" when they feel highly confident that they will be home within an hour, even though it is possible that they will arrive later. In the context of philosophy, however, knowledge is often defined to be absolute certainty. An adherent to solipsism could say something like "I cannot know that anything exists" because knowledge would be defined as absolute certainty beyond any doubt whatsoever.

What's even more problematic is that both of these definitions of knowledge are incompatible with a 2-axis view of theistic plausibility, with one access representing belief and the other representing knowledge. If knowledge is defined as strong belief, then it would obviously fall on the same access as belief. If knowledge is instead defined as absolute certainty, then the terms "gnostic" and "agnostic" have no need to even exist because only the severely deluded would actually claim that it is absolutely and strictly impossible for them to be wrong.

What I like about the Dawkins' Spectrum is that it avoids the word "know" altogether. It's much clearer this way.
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