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Daxx

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Ray Comfort, On The Origin Of Species https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1149.msg10945#msg10945
« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:21 pm »

There were a bunch of guys in town today handing out copies of Darwin's Origin of Species. Even in a university town this was quite unusual, so I went to ask them what was going on. Apparently well known creationist Ray Comfort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Comfort) is giving away copies of Darwin's book. Sound unusual? It's because he's written a 50-page introduction (http://assets.livingwaters.com/pdf/OriginofSpecies.pdf) to the public-domain text, in order to promote Intelligent Design and discredit the theory of Evolution through Natural Selection.

I had quite an interesting chat to one of the guys who was handing out books; I didn't bother trying to argue or debate with him because I wanted to know what he believed and why - debating with people like that tends to make them clam up or ignore you. What really struck me was how little these guys actually know about what they're promoting. Even asking questions about Comfort's claims had them stumped; apparently they disagree with Macroevolution, but they agree that speciation happens - apparently they confuse it with abiogenesis. Then there are the arguments from incredulity, involving irreducible complexity and such. I asked them to explain the argument in a bit more detail and I was just told "Oh, I'm not a scientist, I don't really know".

Has anyone else come across this? I was researching and it seems this is an international campaign. Personally, I think it's actually quite helpful - tear out the first fifty pages and you have a quite serviceable copy of the Origin of Species (albeit missing a few "inconvenient" chapters). That, and the arguments Comfort makes aren't really very good at all so they hinder the creationist case more than they help it, IMO. The main thing I was worried about was that they were pressing this stuff into the hands of children, and it says "for use in schools".

rawr

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Ray Comfort, On The Origin Of Species https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1149.msg10946#msg10946
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:21 pm »

I'd be interested in hearing your argument that the Christians caused the dark ages Scared.  Seems like idle speculation and exaggeration to me.

Scaredgirl

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Ray Comfort, On The Origin Of Species https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1149.msg10947#msg10947
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:21 pm »

Unbeliavable.. I don't even know what to say to that. It's a disgrace that they can add that kind of "introduction" to the book. I wonder what Darwin himself would say about that.

Someone needs to do something about all these religions in the US (I'm guessing this happened in the US). Crap like that can really hinder the scientific development. It's like the Dark Ages all over again.



Scaredgirl

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Ray Comfort, On The Origin Of Species https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1149.msg11094#msg11094
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:27 pm »

I'd be interested in hearing your argument that the Christians caused the dark ages Scared.  Seems like idle speculation and exaggeration to me.
Go to a library and read a book.

Offline Belthus

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Ray Comfort, On The Origin Of Species https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1149.msg11291#msg11291
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:28 pm »

sillyking13, I apologize for my insulting tone.

I find it difficult to carry on a dialogue with someone who dismisses the empirical work of people who spend their lives pursuing knowledge of biology, anthropology, archaeology, etc., with an assertion that uninformed reasoning is superior. It isn't. People sometimes present evidence in a biased way, but that pales in comparison to bias that can affect those who use no check outside of their own heads and common knowledge.

Chimpanzees and dolphins are widely thought to be intelligent, as are related species in the great ape and cetacean families. Elephants, dogs, parrots, and octopuses are on the list. As Daxx said, it's a matter of degree, but those species are considered to be very high in rankings of all animals. There are problems with definition and measurement. Anthropocentric definitions of intelligence can obscure problem-solving and adaptive behaviors that happen in very different settings and tasks outside of normal human experience.

Offline Belthus

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Ray Comfort, On The Origin Of Species https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1149.msg11292#msg11292
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:28 pm »

sillyking14, how did you come to the conclusion that humans are the only intelligent species? Citations would be appreciated. Thanks.

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Ray Comfort, On The Origin Of Species https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1149.msg11293#msg11293
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:28 pm »

unfortunately i don't know how to post links,
Just cut and paste the URL.

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however, how many intelligent species do you know of,
I asked you how you came to your conclusion. I didn't make an assertion. You did. Now please back it up.


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if we knew of any, and as it has been pointed out we'd be competing with them
What makes you think that humans don't compete with other species? The species that are extinct or endangered because of human encroachment on their habitats is huge.

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so chances are we would know about them
Some of us do. The rest would do well to educate themselves.

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therefore scientists would be pushing for the release of that information.
Do you know anything about what scientists have and haven't published?

Does the 14 in your username stand for "14 years old"? I guess you haven't even had high school biology yet.

Daxx

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Ray Comfort, On The Origin Of Species https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1149.msg11294#msg11294
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:28 pm »

as a matter of fact i am. although the argument is more that the theory negates itself if placed under careful logical scrutiny.

here goes. the theory of evolution explains how the wide variety of animals that exist could have come into being but it fails to take into account sentience. at what point did humans gain sentience? (im sorry if anybody reading this doesn't understand that word, basically it means (at least the way im using it) the ability to think and choose) was it before or after we became as we are (physically). it couldn't have been after because that would mean that we devolved. i mean, humans are weak compared to the predators we grew up around. the only advantage we have over animals is that we can think, design, and choose (sentience). so, according to evolution, we must have gained sentience before we "devolved" so that our physical bodies were unnecessary allowing the "genetic mutations" that created us to survive. but if thats true then why do humans have a monopoly on sentience? there should be many other species that are sentient (or at least the one that we evolved from).
You're looking for the word sapience, not sentience (one of my personal bugbears, that). They mean quite different things in a scientific context.

I'm not sure I entirely understand your point, though. It's very clear that becoming intelligent was something that we developed as an evolutionary strategy because there was a niche that could be filled. The human body is comparatively weak compared to, say, crocodiles and lions, but we have other advantages - we are the best long-distance runners on the planet, and we have the ability to climb trees. Developing intelligence was just one evolutionary strategy amongst many that allowed us to fill a niche previously unfilled.

Why do humans have a monopoly on sapience? Probably because sapience is inefficient and complicated as an evolutionary strategy. It's an advantage, to be sure, but to get that advantage you have to sacrifice a great deal - long gestation times, specific dietary requirements, a teaching and learning period for children, and more. Furthermore, sapience has what we might call an exponential impact on the species. If there were multiple sapient species, they would have to have developed fairly concurrently, due to the very little time it has taken for humans to flourish. And, of course, multiple sapient or near-sapient species would naturally compete - see the theorised competition between the contemporaneous Homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens as an example.

One of my friends majored in micro-bio and she doesn't believe in evolution... I can't recall the conversation exactly, but it's something like the DNA of some bacteria is so complicated, if any one thing is wrong it dies. For it to have evolved from anything is impossible. I'll have to ask her about it again.
This is the concept of irreducible complexity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity), which is largely rejected by the scientific community.

Daxx

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Ray Comfort, On The Origin Of Species https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1149.msg11295#msg11295
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:28 pm »

I'm not sure I entirely understand your point, though. It's very clear that becoming intelligent was something that we developed as an evolutionary strategy because there was a niche that could be filled.
strategy (according to Merriam-Webster):  a careful plan or method : a clever stratagem b : the art of devising or employing plans or stratagems toward a goal

a careful plan.........sounds like intelligent design.
Actually, evolutionary strategies are just shorthand for a collection of traits that species use to survive. The term derives from game theory (quite an important topic in evolutionary biology) where a strategy is a series of choices. The choices don't have to be made consciously or even with purpose, but arise naturally from selective pressure into different niches.

how is a longer gestation time a sacrifice? according to natural selection any mutation that survives must provide an advantage of some sort.
Ah, here's your misconception. This isn't true, not every mutation has to be beneficial to be retained by a population. It just has to not kill you or, more specifically, not impair your chances of reproduction.

Long gestation times are required for the development of intelligence because children in the womb require more time to develop a larger brain. The shorter the gestation time, the less time for the foetus to develop.

we don't have special dietary requirements, people get by eating all kinds of diets, actually we can eat almost any food source we don't need a mixture of all of them. i mean think of eskimos, there food source has to be mostly meat because plants have a hard time growing in in ice. however there are also lots of vegetarians around the world. i mean sure humans need certain nutrients to be strong but animals need the same thing (certain nutrients-not the same nutrients necessarily) only difference is that animals are "programmed" (through instinct) to eat foods that provide them, humans can over rule there instinct.
Developing large brains requires certain proteins and other nutrients in larger quantities than you would otherwise find in a regular mammalian diet. One of our quite handy traits is that we are omnivores, but unfortunately this doesn't mean we can become vegans without any consequences (a vegan diet without the necessary proteins can actually kill you - this is why vegans take supplements).

a teaching period is not necessary to intelligence or we would never know anything, because who taught the first man? nono intelligence is about being able to figure things out yourself.
It is absolutely necessary. Other animals teach their children all sorts of things. Baby predators learn how to hunt effectively from their parents, other types of animals (primarily intelligent ones like primates and dolphins) learn how to socialise. No-one needs to have "taught the first man" because 1) there was no first man, and 2) intelligence isn't a binary switch - the hypothetical "first man" could quite easily have learnt from his slightly less intelligent parents. This is the chicken and the egg argument taken to extreme - there was no first chicken to lay the first egg; there were animals which were like chickens which laid eggs, and at some point in the evolutionary continuum we decide to define one of these creatures as a chicken.

but even with all of this the premise or your argument is bad. sacrifice is something that is done. its almost like the animals were saying. "hey i wanna be intelligent" and then others said "no that wouldn't be fair" so the first ones said "well fine but what if we did all of this stuff to ourselves so that its more of a burden?''
i hope that thought sounded ridiculous because it should. it is positively the most ridiculous theory i could possibly come up with.
It's absolutely ridiculous, yes. That is because it is what is called a straw-man argument. That is not what I am arguing, because you seem to fundamentally misunderstand the meanings of some quite common words in context. The "sacrifice" made in our development does not have to have been conscious - the sacrifices were evolutionary adaptions that allowed for increased intelligence but unfortunately impaired other traits (hence the word sacrifice).

If there were multiple sapient species, they would have to have developed fairly concurrently, due to the very little time it has taken for humans to flourish. And, of course, multiple sapient or near-sapient species would naturally compete - see the theorised competition between the contemporaneous Homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens as an example.
that is my point exactly, im saying that we have all of these different intelligent people running around. so why did humans win? physically they are weaker then there predecessors, but mentally they are exactly the same. so who has the advantage?
They aren't mentally the same, necessarily. It's commonly thought that Homo neanderthalensis was less intelligent than Homo sapiens. There are alternate theories as well; competition between species isn't the only mechanism for extinction - it could have been pure luck that made our particular branch win out. Weather change is commonly cited, since H. neanderthalensis was better adapted for colder weather.

And this isn't taking into account that they are not competing against their predecessors except in the strict inter-population competition sense. The fossil record clearly shows improvements in cranial capacity, indicating that we were probably more intelligent than our predecessors.

on top of that you don't see a great amount of diversity in humans, there is some in the different people from different continents but there isn't the wide diversity you see in most animals. take the cat for instance, there is the raw power of the lion, the speed and grace of a cheetah, and then there are house cats. all of which presumable evolved from the same species. so why aren't humans like that? why, in fact, did humans seem to evolve almost exactly the same around the world?
Humans didn't evolve "the same" around the world. We are descended from a common ancestral population that spread from Africa. Furthermore, humans have not actually been around all that long. Evolution takes time to produce speciation and population divergence, and the human population has not had the time to see speciation or even significant morphological differences (aside from variations on skin colour, facial features, average height and weight and so on between populations). The house cat and the lion are descended from a common ancestor some 25 million years ago. Humans originated, according to the evidence, about 200,000 years ago. That's two orders of magnitude in difference.

This is the concept of irreducible complexity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity), which is largely rejected by the scientific community.
that is an assertion that needs proving. why do scientists reject it?
Because no evidence of it has actually been found. Everything claimed to be irreducibly complex has been found not to be (see also: the debate around the eye). It's quite simple - irreducible complexity is an argument from ignorance and therefore is not only a logical fallacy but is in fact one with no supporting evidence.

Delreich

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Ray Comfort, On The Origin Of Species https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1149.msg11296#msg11296
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:28 pm »

id guess that more than half of the people (on both sides) don't understand exactly what evolution means or the scientific arguments for and against it.
Are you saying there are scientific "arguments" against evolution? I'd like to see those.
Usually, arguments aren't what would be used when dealing with scientific theories though; evidence is what you should go for.

it has been presented as an irrefutable fact instead of as a popular theory.
If by "popular" you mean "relating to populations", that just might make sense. Or do you also consider gravity to be a "popular" theory?
Again, evolution is a scientific theory. I suspect you need to have another look at just what that means.



I'd be interested in hearing your argument that the Christians caused the dark ages Scared.  Seems like idle speculation and exaggeration to me.
Not exactly support for that they caused it, but certainly that they kept it going, at least in the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopes_Trial

Offline Demagog

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Ray Comfort, On The Origin Of Species https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1149.msg11297#msg11297
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:28 pm »

One of my friends majored in micro-bio and she doesn't believe in evolution... I can't recall the conversation exactly, but it's something like the DNA of some bacteria is so complicated, if any one thing is wrong it dies. For it to have evolved from anything is impossible. I'll have to ask her about it again.

Forfeit

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Ray Comfort, On The Origin Of Species https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1149.msg11298#msg11298
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:28 pm »

then there is that argument as well, although it applies to origin of life as well as origin of man. i think that basically the argument is who taught cells to read DNA?
Or, more generally, seeing as how a believe that is a nature concept, where does our nature derive from?

 

blarg: