Quotes

[Daxx]

You did just say that, but you were wrong - hence me correcting you. The Christian church did cloister learning. That was the point - they didn't actually educate the peasantry because education was supposed to be holy - only the priesthood (or monks, hence "cloister"), or those who could afford to pay the church a lot of money could receive an education on philosophy and even then rarely and entirely within Christian doctrine. The church was a central part of the feudal power structure.

This concentration of power by controlling information was why, for example, the bible was not translated into a language that the common man could understand.

Also I don't think you understand what I mean when I say "disregarding Rome". Take a while to read what I wrote because I think you're missing the context. Your comment is a complete non sequitur.

[PuppyChow]

social structure which isn't much different to stuff that went before it (disregarding Rome).

Before Greece and Rome, there was no social structure. At least, no structure worth mentioning. Afterwards, there was at least a feudal structure. I was just correcting you on that point.

Anyway,

You did just say that, but you were wrong - hence me correcting you. The Christian church did cloister learning. That was the point - they didn't actually educate the peasantry because education was supposed to be holy - only the priesthood (or monks, hence "cloister"), or those who could afford to pay the church a lot of money could receive an education on philosophy and even then rarely and entirely within Christian doctrine. The church was a central part of the feudal power structure.

This concentration of power by controlling information was why, for example, the bible was not translated into a language that the common man could understand.

The Church simply filled the power vacuum left by the collapse of the Roman Empire, and did more to enhance learning than any other power of the time period did.  So even if limited, it had a positive effect.

[vrt]

<snip>

Umph, sorry, it was late, and due to a mistranslation within Dutch history classes I got two ages mixed up. I feel like an idiot.

I do, however, still believe that within the Dark Ages, most if not all places of learning were meant to uphold the Christian faith. Wether or not that's a good thing I still can't say. It, however, greatly affected the years that followed it, when the catholic church did take on a very oppressing role. Indulgences would be an easy example, and there's quite a bit more to it there, as well.


Sorry for the confusion, aside from Daxx' comment, I stand corrected.

[Daxx]

social structure which isn't much different to stuff that went before it (disregarding Rome).

Before Greece and Rome, there was no social structure. At least, no structure worth mentioning. Afterwards, there was at least a feudal structure. I was just correcting you on that point.

Wow, that's quite a classico-centrist viewpoint ("there was nothing of worth in the world before Greece and Rome!"). I dispute that the structure of tribes, kingdoms and countries post Rome was much different to the tribes, kingdoms, and countries that came before. Don't confuse a lack of knowledge about pre-Roman civilisation with there being none.

[PuppyChow]

Wow, that's quite a classico-centrist viewpoint ("there was nothing of worth in the world before Greece and Rome!"). I dispute that the structure of tribes, kingdoms and countries post Rome was much different to the tribes, kingdoms, and countries that came before. Don't confuse a lack of knowledge about pre-Roman civilisation with there being none.

Pre-Roman civilization, there was a bunch of nomadic tribes living throughout Europe, each with its own culture. Aka, no unity, no common political theory, and nothing worth mentioning in a historical textbook (that's pretty much all it has to say). After Roman times, there WAS unity through the church AND a common political structure: feudalism. Saying both are similar is almost akin to saying the United States in the 1900s was similar to the colonial United States.

However, that does not, of course, mean that pre-Roman there was nothing. To the contrary, many beginning civilizations had already started up in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China, and India. Just none in Europe.

(In fact, China's Han dynasty, the 4th dynasty, was just starting at the time the Roman empire came about, and India's Mauryan Empire had come and gone.)

[Daxx]

Except there aren't examples of feudalism until well into the 9th-11th centuries. Rome split in the 3rd century and the western part collapsed in the 5th (around when Christianity was starting to take hold in Rome). How do you account for the period in between?

[918273645]

You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend - Richard Jeni Made me laugh.

[samrynredflame]

Religion has actually convinced people that there`s an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do..And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever `til the end of time! ...But He loves you.   George Carlin

I may be a slightly religious person myself, I am actually quite a bit more spiritually these days... but this quote right hear is probably the BEST QUOTE EVER when it comes to God.

[Belthus]

"Neither by word nor look have I expressed any other feeling than sympathy with those who hope to live again - for those who bend above their dead and dream of life to come. But I have denounced the selfishness and heartlessness of those who expect for themselves an eternity of joy, and for the rest of mankind predict, without a tear, a world of endless pain. Nothing can be more contemptible than such a hope - a hope that can give satisfaction only to the hyenas of the human race." - Robert G. Ingersoll

[Hamish MacWolf]

Considering this was originally labelled "Quotes" and not "Alright, who started the Dark Ages? Come on, own up - who did it? What it you, Christianity? Or was it those nasty Goths? What?! The collapse of the Roman Empire? The hell you say!", I thought I would add some.

As a second proviso, let me add that considering the Christian quote section was left blank, because nothing good could be found, I thought I would simply try to balance the scale.

The Bible tells us to love our neighbors, and also to love our enemies; probably because they are generally the same people. - GK Chesterton

There are those who hate Christianity and call their hatred an all-embracing love for all religions. - GK Chesterton

The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried. - GK Chesterton

It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible. - George Washington

How many observe Christ's birthday! How few, his precepts! O! 'tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments. - Benjamin Franklin

Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right. - Abraham Lincoln

We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. - JRR Tolkein

A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell. - C. S. Lewis

A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C. S. Lewis

Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither. - C. S. Lewis

Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable. - C. S. Lewis

Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important. - C. S. Lewis

[Boingo]

A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell. - C. S. Lewis

He's a very good read.  Love this quote. 

[ratcharmer]

Thank you Hamish et al., for getting this thread back on track.

The first one is a Christian Quote, but I think it's applicable to other religions as well. The others aren't strictly religious, but they have applications to religion and are good quotes:

"Faith is not belief in spite of evidence, but life in scorn of consequences -- a courageous trust in the great purpose of all things, and pressing forward to finish the work which is in sight, whatever the price may be."
- Kirsopp Lake

"Whatever doesn't kill you delays the inevitable"
-despair.com

"It isn't evil that's ruining the earth, but mediocrity. The crime is not that Nero fiddled while Rome burned, but that he played badly."
-Ned Rorem