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Offline darkrobe

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Re: Proof Doesn't Matter https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33372.msg450063#msg450063
« Reply #168 on: January 18, 2012, 01:54:18 am »
@OT. I got caught up in the discussion and forgot where i was trying to lead it. lol. but basically Would not the most basic conclusion be that it does not matter whether someone believes or not? If belief and disbelief are equivalent. why does it matter whether someone believes or not.


@naesala. I guess this is where we differ.

If i was a blind man, and another blind man told me about the existence of color. I would never see a reason to believe him, because I believe my credentials as an expert on the existence, distribution, and variance of color, to be exactly the same as his. that is to say. no expertise in the existence of color.

To be honest. zealots of atheism or of any specific religion fail in my view, because they at their core are basically saying to me that they have certain knowledge that I simply dont believe they can ever have for certain.

You say you would decide by comparing your knowledge against theirs. If a person decides they dont have knowledge, and do not see how another person could gain this knowledge. how would they make this comparison?

Offline Naesala

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Re: Proof Doesn't Matter https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33372.msg450066#msg450066
« Reply #169 on: January 18, 2012, 02:01:19 am »
Sorry, the wording of the question is confusing me.
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Offline darkrobe

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Re: Proof Doesn't Matter https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33372.msg450069#msg450069
« Reply #170 on: January 18, 2012, 02:02:41 am »
the original question? or the question i just posed?

Edit: the basics of the second question are the following. It seems from your statements that you are coming from a position where you believe that you have gained some knowledge about a celestial being (whether from you personal thoughts, or discussion with others, or looking at unexplained phenomenon). and when trying to decide whether to accept a new version of a celestial being. you accept that it is possible that the other person might know something about said celestial being. Thus your decision making involves comparing your knowledge versus their knowledge and choosing based on that comparison.

If someone has looked at their experiences and the world and thought about the existence of a celestial being, and come to the conclusion that it would be impossible for them to know whether a celestial being exists or not, and would be equally impossible for them to guess the intentions or motives of such a being if they did exist. Should they not also believe that it would be impossible for a stranger to come to such conclusions with any degree of certainty.

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Re: Proof Doesn't Matter https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33372.msg450070#msg450070
« Reply #171 on: January 18, 2012, 02:09:31 am »
@OT. I got caught up in the discussion and forgot where i was trying to lead it. lol. but basically Would not the most basic conclusion be that it does not matter whether someone believes or not? If belief and disbelief are equivalent. why does it matter whether someone believes or not.
My position:
If evidence for X would necessarily exist if X existed then lack of evidence is evidence of lack. This is the justification for the null being the default in the limited cases. Outside of those cases lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. Thus either position is valid. I find it foolish to exclude a valid position from consideration or to criticize others for holding a valid position. Foolishness in reason with respect to theology can result in a mental habit leading to foolishness in reason with respect to ethics. Whether someone believes in an unproveable god or not does not matter. What matters is the mental patterns resulting from their attitude towards the other possibility.
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Offline darkrobe

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Re: Proof Doesn't Matter https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33372.msg450073#msg450073
« Reply #172 on: January 18, 2012, 02:37:02 am »
ah, I see.

I dont actually think our positions are far off. I think I thought the argument would go in a different direction. I am not atheist and do not subscribe to the null hypothesis. My qualms are with attempts to set up one position as stronger than another position. I also like to argue sometimes.  ;D



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Re: Proof Doesn't Matter https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33372.msg450074#msg450074
« Reply #173 on: January 18, 2012, 02:57:50 am »
The null hypothesis has its place. But that implies there are places it does not apply as well.

Imagine I am tossing a fair coin (regular or doublesided is unknown to you). I tell you that one side is a heads. Each consecutive flip after that which does not reveal a heads side is evidence to you against the existence of a heads side. That is provided you would be able to distinguish between heads and tails on that coin.
Key:
Coin = Reality
Flips = Time/Events
Tails = No evidence of a God
Heads = Evidence of a God
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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Proof Doesn't Matter https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33372.msg450095#msg450095
« Reply #174 on: January 18, 2012, 04:30:45 am »
The null hypothesis has its place. But that implies there are places it does not apply as well.

Imagine I am tossing a fair coin (regular or doublesided is unknown to you). I tell you that one side is a heads. Each consecutive flip after that which does not reveal a heads side is evidence to you against the existence of a heads side. That is provided you would be able to distinguish between heads and tails on that coin.
Key:
Coin = Reality
Flips = Time/Events
Tails = No evidence of a God
Heads = Evidence of a God
You've missed the point so colossally that I'm about ready to give up. If someone flips a coin 100 times and each time it comes up tails, it's reasonable to assume that it's a double-sided coin (the chance that a fair coin will do that is 1/2^100, which is extremely unlikely). Of course, that all changes if on the 101st time you see heads (though it would still be reasonable to believe it was a weighted coin). Similarly, if I do see evidence for a god's existence, I will change my tune.

You have permanently excluded the possibility of "a being with unlimited power that does not wish to reveal itself" from the beliefs you could possibly hold.
My question is: Whether this is reasonable, if so why is it reasonable and what are the limitations on those reasons? Is it reasonable for Dave (see my most recent post) to exclude the possibility of color existing?

You assert that it "can never be rational is to take a position without any supporting evidence". I agree when evidence necessarily exists. However I would be hard pressed to agree in cases where evidence necessarily does not exist. In cases where no evidence can exist for any position including the null position, I see no reason to take any position over another nor to avoid any position in favor of another.
It's completely reasonable. I can never perceive evidence of the existence of a being with unlimited power that does not wish to reveal itself. Rationality demands that my beliefs be supported by evidence (or else any belief would be equally valid...2+2=5, doorknobs explode, etc.). Therefore, it's rational to permanently exclude the possibility of "a being with unlimited power that does not wish to reveal itself" from the beliefs I could possibly hold. That's not to say that it's impossible -- it isn't -- but it's not rational, either. At least, it's just as rational as the belief that really, all of reality is an illusion and we're just the dream of a man in an insane asylum, or that everyone else is just a robot and I'm the only real person. Sure, these things are possible and I can't even evaluate whether they're true, but there's no reason I can think of to believe in any of them.

Dave is wrong to doubt color by making up a bizarre justification for the experiments that they showed him "Dave agrees that this shows a relation between the difference in the material and the difference in the absorption but remains unconvinced that the difference was color rather than a currently unknown factor like the chemical bond energies in the materials." This is nonsense.

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Re: Proof Doesn't Matter https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33372.msg450108#msg450108
« Reply #175 on: January 18, 2012, 05:31:33 am »
The null hypothesis has its place. But that implies there are places it does not apply as well.

Imagine I am tossing a fair coin (regular or doublesided is unknown to you). I tell you that one side is a heads. Each consecutive flip after that which does not reveal a heads side is evidence to you against the existence of a heads side. That is provided you would be able to distinguish between heads and tails on that coin.
Key:
Coin = Reality
Flips = Time/Events
Tails = No evidence of a God
Heads = Evidence of a God
You've missed the point so colossally that I'm about ready to give up. If someone flips a coin 100 times and each time it comes up tails, it's reasonable to assume that it's a double-sided coin (the chance that a fair coin will do that is 1/2^100, which is extremely unlikely). Of course, that all changes if on the 101st time you see heads (though it would still be reasonable to believe it was a weighted coin). Similarly, if I do see evidence for a god's existence, I will change my tune.
You repeated what I said in the underlined part. Imagine you could not tell the difference between heads and tails even if heads came up. If that were the case then the apparent lack of evidence would not be reasonable to use as evidence of lack.
You have permanently excluded the possibility of "a being with unlimited power that does not wish to reveal itself" from the beliefs you could possibly hold.
My question is: Whether this is reasonable, if so why is it reasonable and what are the limitations on those reasons? Is it reasonable for Dave (see my most recent post) to exclude the possibility of color existing?

You assert that it "can never be rational is to take a position without any supporting evidence". I agree when evidence necessarily exists. However I would be hard pressed to agree in cases where evidence necessarily does not exist. In cases where no evidence can exist for any position including the null position, I see no reason to take any position over another nor to avoid any position in favor of another.
It's completely reasonable. I can never perceive evidence of the existence of a being with unlimited power that does not wish to reveal itself. Rationality demands that my beliefs be supported by evidence (or else any belief would be equally valid...2+2=5, doorknobs explode, etc.). Therefore, it's rational to permanently exclude the possibility of "a being with unlimited power that does not wish to reveal itself" from the beliefs I could possibly hold. That's not to say that it's impossible -- it isn't -- but it's not rational, either. At least, it's just as rational as the belief that really, all of reality is an illusion and we're just the dream of a man in an insane asylum, or that everyone else is just a robot and I'm the only real person. Sure, these things are possible and I can't even evaluate whether they're true, but there's no reason I can think of to believe in any of them.

Dave is wrong to doubt color by making up a bizarre justification for the experiments that they showed him "Dave agrees that this shows a relation between the difference in the material and the difference in the absorption but remains unconvinced that the difference was color rather than a currently unknown factor like the chemical bond energies in the materials." This is nonsense.
In this section you do a good job expanding on a few reasons.
1) Rationality demands that my beliefs be supported by evidence or else any belief would be equally valid.
If no belief including the null is supported by evidence then all beliefs including the null are equally valid.
When evidence exists (especially evidence for the null) then rationality demands you follow the evidence.
When evidence cannot exist for the positive if the positive were true, where does the evidence to support the null come from?

2) Dave is wrong to reject one hypothesis that lacks evidence in favor of another vague explanation that also lacks evidence.
I had to leave this example remarkably bare for it to stay analogous and lacking evidence. Here Dave is refusing a positive with no evidence for another positive with no evidence. You and I both find this kind of bias objectionable.

PS: Dave happens to have guessed correctly. Color is a sense in our eyes/brain that observes the material absorbing and emitting of photons from chemical bonds.
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Offline ElementalDearWatson

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Re: Proof Doesn't Matter https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33372.msg1008366#msg1008366
« Reply #176 on: October 16, 2012, 12:20:25 pm »
Major thread necromancy, for which I apologise, but I wanted to make a quick point about something said early on in the thread which went unchallenged. 


On page 2, jmdt said "[size=78%]Cancer just doesn't dissapear by itself."  Actually, yes it can.  [/size][/color][/size][size=78%]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_remission[/size][size=78%]

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Re: Proof Doesn't Matter https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33372.msg1015100#msg1015100
« Reply #177 on: November 12, 2012, 02:59:17 pm »
You seem to suggest that if we encounter something that science cannot instantly explain, we should just say: "God did it" until we have solid scientific proof to show otherwise.
Thats not what Im saying at all.

"Wow, there's this one event that correlates with this one doctrine, I should put all my faith in every single part of this doctrine even though I didn't have faith in it before."
Once again, not what im saying.

 Im saying no matter how miraculous, and impossible an event may be, it will not matter to many people because they refuse to accept the possibility of a God. Sure magicians are good at appearing to do the impossible, however, if, once again, for example a persons limb grew back to full shape almost immediately after being cut off, or someone rose from the dead after being dead for a week or any other impossible event occured, God would get no credit because people would just say "there has to be a scientific explanation for it". And even after being tested ect, it will just be chalked up to something that can not be explained by science.... yet.
Well, why would they? People like to have a rational view on the world. Actually, scratch that. A ton of people actually think like that.

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Re: Proof Doesn't Matter https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33372.msg1021342#msg1021342
« Reply #178 on: December 11, 2012, 06:09:25 am »
Oh, so I should attribute every narrowly averted terrorist attack to the Flying Spaghetti Monster until the US government can figure out what happened?
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Re: Proof Doesn't Matter https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33372.msg1021347#msg1021347
« Reply #179 on: December 11, 2012, 06:33:21 am »
Oh, so I should attribute every narrowly averted terrorist attack to the Flying Spaghetti Monster until the US government can figure out what happened?
Strawman. Please reread for comprehension. IIRC nobody in this thread claimed atheism was irrational. The assertion that one should be a theist requires the premise that being an atheist is irrational. Since nobody had the premise then nobody had the conclusion. Hence the identification of your post as a Strawman.
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