Proof Doesn't Matter

[darkrobe]

Given all that, I will close with a simple challenge: if you do not think prayer works, find someone who does and let them pray with you for something that will benefit someone else.  Then you will have personal evidence when it happens and it is on you to accept or deny it.

Its not a very good challenge. just so you know.

Let say I make the claim that I am psychic and that I can manipulate dice rolls.

The equivalent of what you just said is the following:
I say that as evidence of my abilities, you can ask me to help you roll a six next time you roll dice, and if i feel like helping you that day, I will give you a six. If you don't roll a six, well it was a request, not a command. You just have to keep asking.

The problem is that you are asking someone to cherry pick the evidence that suits your point of view. It not a very good way of collecting evidence.

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Id like to make a more religious and theistic point regarding the idea behind this thread. The basic idea is that there is some sort of evidence that you can give that would prove gods existence. And we simply have to identify it and then you can convert all the nonbelievers in the world.

However, Belief in god is not based on proof. It is based on FAITH. Faith is a gift from GOD. The only person who can offer the gift of faith to someone is GOD. the problem with many religious people, is that they think that if they argue enough with someone, or sneak attack them with rationalizations, or bully them, or give them reasons like pascals wager to believe in god, then they will be able to "convince" the other person that god exists. I'm pretty sure an all powerful god would not need your help to make himself known to someone if he so wanted.

When people argue that "such and such" thing is proof of gods existence. what they are actually saying is that "such and such" thing is what gives them faith in gods existence. And what inspires faith is not a one size fits all thing. If you tell someone that "such and such" thing gives you faith and they gain faith as well. great! good for you! however if that does not give them faith. you cannot argue that they are ignoring some "proof" of gods existence. there is no such thing because belief in god is not based on proof. it is based on faith. 


EDIT:

After rereading the thread, this post basically supports this post from naesala earlier in the thread

......... Proof doesn't matter because there is no way we could find proof that would satisfy an atheist because we cannot even create a test to prove God's existence.

Therefore the only way to try convert atheists to a religion is a discussion focused around Pascal's wager and discussions of the type where we try to prove it's in there best instance to try to believe, or some kind of major life-altering event (near-death, etc.) occurring in his or her life.

Yes?

So basically, Im saying your only option to convert an atheist is to give them your reasons for faith and see if that resonates with them. and if it doesnt you really dont have many other options other than say holy war or something to wipe them out.

[BluePriest]

Id like to make a more religious and theistic point regarding the idea behind this thread. The basic idea is that there is some sort of evidence that you can give that would prove gods existence. And we simply have to identify it and then you can convert all the nonbelievers in the world.

However, Belief in god is not based on proof. It is based on FAITH. Faith is a gift from GOD. The only person who can offer the gift of faith to someone is GOD. the problem with many religious people, is that they think that if they argue enough with someone, or sneak attack them with rationalizations, or bully them, or give them reasons like pascals wager to believe in god, then they will be able to "convince" the other person that god exists. I'm pretty sure an all powerful god would not need your help to make himself known to someone if he so wanted.

When people argue that "such and such" thing is proof of gods existence. what they are actually saying is that "such and such" thing is what gives them faith in gods existence. And what inspires faith is not a one size fits all thing. If you tell someone that "such and such" thing gives you faith and they gain faith as well. great! good for you! however if that does not give them faith. you cannot argue that they are ignoring some "proof" of gods existence. there is no such thing because belief in god is not based on proof. it is based on faith.

... This thread isnt to try to find proof of God existing... It actually has nothing at all to do with the believer, and everything to do with the nonbeliever.
Aka, this post is largely irrelevant (to this discussion, not to religion in general, as it is a very good point. Also, not trying to be harsh, just trying to keep it on topic as possible)

[darkrobe]

Id like to make a more religious and theistic point regarding the idea behind this thread. The basic idea is that there is some sort of evidence that you can give that would prove gods existence. And we simply have to identify it and then you can convert all the nonbelievers in the world.

However, Belief in god is not based on proof. It is based on FAITH. Faith is a gift from GOD. The only person who can offer the gift of faith to someone is GOD. the problem with many religious people, is that they think that if they argue enough with someone, or sneak attack them with rationalizations, or bully them, or give them reasons like pascals wager to believe in god, then they will be able to "convince" the other person that god exists. I'm pretty sure an all powerful god would not need your help to make himself known to someone if he so wanted.

When people argue that "such and such" thing is proof of gods existence. what they are actually saying is that "such and such" thing is what gives them faith in gods existence. And what inspires faith is not a one size fits all thing. If you tell someone that "such and such" thing gives you faith and they gain faith as well. great! good for you! however if that does not give them faith. you cannot argue that they are ignoring some "proof" of gods existence. there is no such thing because belief in god is not based on proof. it is based on faith.

... This thread isnt to try to find proof of God existing... It actually has nothing at all to do with the believer, and everything to do with the nonbeliever.
Aka, this post is largely irrelevant (to this discussion, not to religion in general, as it is a very good point. Also, not trying to be harsh, just trying to keep it on topic as possible)

Oh, sorry. I thought I was making related points. i was trying to give my explanation as to why "proof doesnt matter". aka proof doesnt matter because being a believer or unbeliever is not defined by proofs.

Perhaps You could reframe what you would like us to be arguing now? its your thread so ill try and respect your thoughts on the matter.

Edit: Also, I appologize if i threw anyone off with my argument. It may have been something of a shift in gears. but it made sense in my head thinking about a response after a few hours.

[CCCombobreaker]

Given all that, I will close with a simple challenge: if you do not think prayer works, find someone who does and let them pray with you for something that will benefit someone else.  Then you will have personal evidence when it happens and it is on you to accept or deny it.

Its not a very good challenge. just so you know.

AND

ive had, on two separate occasions, had a christian stop me randomly on campus and ask to pray over my leg to heal it.  nothing happened.  did that prove to them that GOD does not exist?  no.  you cannot cherry pick examples of random things happening and say it happened because someone prayed for it, when prayer fails 10000 times as often as it succeeds.

It isn't meant to be a "good challenge" or "proof".  I am simply requesting you try it.  I don't think there is a lot at stake for you or cost (except a little time and willingness).  It may have no effect on you whatsoever.  I'm not saying it will change your life.  I'm saying it might be a worthwhile experience.

Also that prayers go unanswered is documented in the Bible.  It is important to understand that in praying to God there are factors beyond "I asked for it".  If you could isolate all these factors and hold them constant in two scenarios and the only difference was in one you prayed and in the other your didn't and then others repeated the study, you could generate a strong empirical case for or against prayer... just like we do in other scientific endeavors.  But just like many things science has tried to study... these factors are hard to isolate and so we are left with ambiguous results and conflicting studies.  No one case study is a proof.  Neither is a million examples where the factors are not in place.

This is a really really basic illustration and may not track perfectly so please don't get derailed by it.

Say you have traveled the world in search of a car that starts when you press a button.  But every car you get into.... you press all the buttons and it doesn't turn on.  This is not proof they don't exist.  Say you then find out a specific car that supposedly has this button.  You go searching for these cars and find over 1000 of them, but each one you get into and press the button... it doesn't turn on.  What you didn't know was that the 1000 you found had a wire missing or had a totally dead battery or some other factor that negated the car's push to start ability.  You still do not have proof that such a car does not exist and functions as you have heard.  No matter how hard you try to find one and fail, if you don't understand why it isn't working you cannot say that it cannot work.

So proof is theoretically possibly but practically impossible. 

Here are some Biblical explanations of things that stand between us and having out prayers answered:

Have you forgiven those who have wronged you?

Mark 11:24-25 (New Living Translation)
24 I tell you, you can pray for anything, and if you believe that you’ve received it, it will be yours. 25 But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins, too.[a]”

Have you confessed your mistakes?

James 5:16 (New Living Translation)
 16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and produces wonderful results.

Do you know God hears you?

1 John 5:14-15 (New Living Translation)
14 And we are confident that he hears us whenever we ask for anything that pleases him. 15 And since we know he hears us when we make our requests, we also know that he will give us what we ask for.

It is clear in scripture that God always hears us but that His answer depends on us in some ways and not just Him.  And He always wants you to trust Him more than He wants you to have what you asked for... He wants you to love Him for who He is and not for what He does for you.

[russianspy1234]

Given all that, I will close with a simple challenge: if you do not think prayer works, find someone who does and let them pray with you for something that will benefit someone else.  Then you will have personal evidence when it happens and it is on you to accept or deny it.

Its not a very good challenge. just so you know.

AND

ive had, on two separate occasions, had a christian stop me randomly on campus and ask to pray over my leg to heal it.  nothing happened.  did that prove to them that GOD does not exist?  no.  you cannot cherry pick examples of random things happening and say it happened because someone prayed for it, when prayer fails 10000 times as often as it succeeds.

It isn't meant to be a "good challenge" or "proof".  I am simply requesting you try it.  I don't think there is a lot at stake for you or cost (except a little time and willingness).  It may have no effect on you whatsoever.  I'm not saying it will change your life.  I'm saying it might be a worthwhile experience.

Also that prayers go unanswered is documented in the Bible.  It is important to understand that in praying to God there are factors beyond "I asked for it".  If you could isolate all these factors and hold them constant in two scenarios and the only difference was in one you prayed and in the other your didn't and then others repeated the study, you could generate a strong empirical case for or against prayer... just like we do in other scientific endeavors.  But just like many things science has tried to study... these factors are hard to isolate and so we are left with ambiguous results and conflicting studies.  No one case study is a proof.  Neither is a million examples where the factors are not in place.

This is a really really basic illustration and may not track perfectly so please don't get derailed by it.

Say you have traveled the world in search of a car that starts when you press a button.  But every car you get into.... you press all the buttons and it doesn't turn on.  This is not proof they don't exist.  Say you then find out a specific car that supposedly has this button.  You go searching for these cars and find over 1000 of them, but each one you get into and press the button... it doesn't turn on.  What you didn't know was that the 1000 you found had a wire missing or had a totally dead battery or some other factor that negated the car's push to start ability.  You still do not have proof that such a car does not exist and functions as you have heard.  No matter how hard you try to find one and fail, if you don't understand why it isn't working you cannot say that it cannot work.

So proof is theoretically possibly but practically impossible. 

Here are some Biblical explanations of things that stand between us and having out prayers answered:

Have you forgiven those who have wronged you?

Mark 11:24-25 (New Living Translation)
24 I tell you, you can pray for anything, and if you believe that you’ve received it, it will be yours. 25 But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins, too.[a]”

Have you confessed your mistakes?

James 5:16 (New Living Translation)
 16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and produces wonderful results.

Do you know God hears you?

1 John 5:14-15 (New Living Translation)
14 And we are confident that he hears us whenever we ask for anything that pleases him. 15 And since we know he hears us when we make our requests, we also know that he will give us what we ask for.

It is clear in scripture that God always hears us but that His answer depends on us in some ways and not just Him.  And He always wants you to trust Him more than He wants you to have what you asked for... He wants you to love Him for who He is and not for what He does for you.

it sure was.  i do believe in GOD, and have prayed, both for myself and for others.  my point is that "proof", especially the example given in the OP is a flawed concept when you are dealing with matters of religion.  if your experiment is "if X happens it means GOD exists, and if it doesnt it means nothing"  its a bad experience (as is the inverse incidentally)  i know enough about engineering to know a car that starts when you push a button is entirely possible, ive even driven one.  you cannot liken a praying for an event that can have a dozen different completely natural causes to pressing a button to start a car.

[maverixk]

However, Belief in god is not based on proof. It is based on FAITH. Faith is a gift from GOD.

This seems to be something that comes up quite often when dealing with matters of religion. (I haven't heart the gift from God part before, though)

My biggest problem with this point is that it means that your belief in God is not based at all on proof, which, quite honestly would make you a fool. If you believe something this life affecting without proof, then why are you believing it?

[Kamietsu]

However, Belief in god is not based on proof. It is based on FAITH. Faith is a gift from GOD.

This seems to be something that comes up quite often when dealing with matters of religion. (I haven't heart the gift from God part before, though)

My biggest problem with this point is that it means that your belief in God is not based at all on proof, which, quite honestly would make you a fool. If you believe something this life affecting without proof, then why are you believing it?

That's called faith.

Really, all proof comes down to is your own belief in it. If praying is proof that God exists to a believer, thenby all means they will always see it that way, just as the reverse is also true. (Note, I just say always for emphasis.) If someone sees proof as to how diamonds are formed right if front of them, and they choose not to believe in that, then the proof they were presented with wasn't strong enough to make them believe. Similar things have been said in this thread that I skimmed over, and honestly, such thoughts I hadn't thought of before. But it makes absolute sense to me.

If I firmly believe this bowl in front of me is made of water resistant paper, it will be a very challenging thing to try and convince me otherwise, even if you show me proof, such as taking me to the place where they manufactured it. I can come up with a thousand reasons that would support my own believe that it is water resistant paper. Maybe this bowl was just made to look like the ones in this factory. Maybe someone planted this bowl in this factory to be shipped out.

As strongly as someone can believe in something, someone else can believe oppositely just as strongl

[darkrobe]

However, Belief in god is not based on proof. It is based on FAITH. Faith is a gift from GOD.

This seems to be something that comes up quite often when dealing with matters of religion. (I haven't heart the gift from God part before, though)

My biggest problem with this point is that it means that your belief in God is not based at all on proof, which, quite honestly would make you a fool. If you believe something this life affecting without proof, then why are you believing it?

kamietsu said something similar. but my point is that most religion and or belief systems require belief without proof. that is what faith is. Im saying that you cannot transfer "belief without proof" to someone by showing them an example of a proof. faith is by definition not based on proof.

EDIT: whether that makes someone a fool or not is completely up to your own standards. most people believe things without proof all the time. Im not arguing the merits of it. Im simply saying why proof doesnt matter when trying to argue with religious or non-religious people.

[OldTrees]

My biggest problem with this point is that it means that your belief in God is not based at all on proof, which, quite honestly would make you a fool. If you believe something this life affecting without proof, then why are you believing it?

People naturally develop irrational beliefs like Theism and Strong Atheism when exposed to a question. The only way to be free of an irrational belief is to replace it with a belief from pure reason even if the new belief (rational Theism or rational Strong Atheism) is identical to the old one. Since pure reason has not succeed in answering the question, people are forced to rely on their unreliable intuitions and preconceptions about reality. For now

I too have an irrational belief on this topic. However I have no respect for it nor pride in it.

[Essence]

Thread: tl;dr.

Proof does not, in fact, matter. People who use the scientific method to establish their worldview are exactly as guilty of mental fallacies and flawed reasoning as people who don't. They pride themselves on not 'falling prey' to mystical thinking, for example, but most of them fall prey to confirmation bias, form arbitrary groups and then dehumanize outsiders for not already being in those groups, and commit every fallacy on youarenotsosmart.com and beyond on a weekly basis.

Proof serves one purpose: to give people who believe that the proof is real (i.e. people who don't have a reason to want to disbelieve it) something to point at when they're asked about their beliefs. But all proof is suspect -- anyone determined enough to disbelieve something will.

[OldTrees]

Thread: tl;dr.

Proof does not, in fact, matter. People who use the scientific method to establish their worldview are exactly as guilty of mental fallacies and flawed reasoning as people who don't. They pride themselves on not 'falling prey' to mystical thinking, for example, but most of them fall prey to confirmation bias, form arbitrary groups and then dehumanize outsiders for not already being in those groups, and commit every fallacy on youarenotsosmart.com and beyond on a weekly basis.

Proof serves one purpose: to give people who believe that the proof is real (i.e. people who don't have a reason to want to disbelieve it) something to point at when they're asked about their beliefs. But all proof is suspect -- anyone determined enough to disbelieve something will.

Glad you joined

I agreed mostly.

I have not found anyone capable of disbelieving a tautology (If A, then A) or a non statement (A or not A). Building proof from only these components is ridiculous but necessary for those oppositional enough to try to disbelieve everything. In specific instances shared premises can be inserted instead of non statement premises. doing so introduces sources of error that both parties agreed to ignore for the time being (hence shared).

On another topic from the thread:
Do you have a set of sufficient conditions for divinity that I could use?
I am trying to determine if any sufficient condition for divinity could be observable from an action of said being.

[The_Mormegil]

whether that makes someone a fool or not is completely up to your own standards. most people believe things without proof all the time. Im not arguing the merits of it. Im simply saying why proof doesnt matter when trying to argue with religious or non-religious people.

While this is true, I find there is a substantial difference between believing something without proving it and, as you pointed out, religious belief (or faith, as you may call it). That is, faith is not based on proof and indeed cannot exist with proof. If you have proof that something exists, you can't have faith in it. You might use the word faith to indicate the respect and trust you put on something or someone but that is another meaning entirely and does not matter in this discussion (it's a semantic problem).

Also, there is a problem with faith as I have just defined it (accepting something without proof and dismissing the need to prove it): it creates a mindset where you have irremovable truths and absolutes. Also, it conflicts with logical thought.

The fact that you have irremovable truths and absolutes is self-evident. If you hold onto an absolute, though, you are bound to make decisions based on that absolute sooner or later, and those decisions impact those around you - people who may or may not have faith in the same absolute. This creates tensions and ultimately damages society, unless everybody agreed to the above absolute. Therefore, religious people tend to force their absolute on society, by means of conversion or other influences, to avoid the damage they are doing to the society while still conserving their belief.

The fact that faith conflicts with logical thought is simply shown too: all things that are accepted as true without proof can be used as hypothesis for logical thought, and that reaches conclusions which are different based on which absolute you believe in. This is in contrast with logical thought which aims at reaching the same conclusions for every thinker. This conflict can only be solved by limiting, hindering, or negating altogether logic (logic cannot prove god because he is above logic). This creates a situation where the believers refuse to use logic in a debate, and that is #1 on the list of "things that end a discussion", right above stating to be fascist.