Proof Doesn't Matter

[BluePriest]

I feel I need to reaffirm WHY this topic was created. It was not created because I am trying to assert that a leg spontaneously regenerating in a matter of moments is proof of God.

Instead I am saying that I feel many (not all) use lack of proof of God, as a reason not to believe, when in reality, there is essentially nothing that many of the people that assert that as proof.

[darkrobe]

I agree with your sidenote. And the point about prayer and the cloaked figure is not whether or not it proves the figure is god/human/alien/robot, but whether there's a point in asking said figure. I know atheists who play RPGs with me and say "Please don't let this be a one." doesn't matter if theyre asking a god they don't believe in, the dice, the other players who have no real influence or anything else. Theyre still asking in vague hope it will increase their odds

I guess my point in this cloaked figure description is that you have no evidence that this cloaked figure would not have given you a dollar regardless of whether you asked or not.  perhaps it is indeed a cloaked robot. and it is programed to give dollars to every second person that walks by. regardless of whether you ask him anything. In that case, asking the robot for something is a pointless exercise.

Same thing with the Dice. whether or not someone asks for a number over than one, that doesnt effect the actual outcome of the dice roll.

[Naesala]

These threads do tend to get caught up on tangent thoughts and arguements. Hard to keep them railed in.

I guess my point in this cloaked figure description is that you have no evidence that this cloaked figure would not have given you a dollar regardless of whether you asked or not.  perhaps it is indeed a cloaked robot. and it is programed to give dollars to every second person that walks by. regardless of whether you ask him anything. In that case, asking the robot for something is a pointless exercise.

Same thing with the Dice. whether or not someone asks for a number over than one, that doesnt effect the actual outcome of the dice roll.

First point that may be true, but you dont -know- thats how the robot works, might as well tilt the odds in your favor. and with dice, like i said people do it -whether it helps or not- because of some feeling that maybe, just maybe it'll affect the odds. And heck, it might. Maybe the movement of their voice through the air is just enough to alter the dies movement. Can't text everything all the time, now can you?

[darkrobe]

These threads do tend to get caught up on tangent thoughts and arguements. Hard to keep them railed in.

I guess my point in this cloaked figure description is that you have no evidence that this cloaked figure would not have given you a dollar regardless of whether you asked or not.  perhaps it is indeed a cloaked robot. and it is programed to give dollars to every second person that walks by. regardless of whether you ask him anything. In that case, asking the robot for something is a pointless exercise.

Same thing with the Dice. whether or not someone asks for a number over than one, that doesnt effect the actual outcome of the dice roll.

First point that may be true, but you dont -know- thats how the robot works, might as well tilt the odds in your favor. and with dice, like i said people do it -whether it helps or not- because of some feeling that maybe, just maybe it'll affect the odds. And heck, it might. Maybe the movement of their voice through the air is just enough to alter the dies movement. Can't text everything all the time, now can you?

no I do not know. but then, neither do you. I live my life the best way I know how and hope that at the end, if there is a god, he will look kindly on someone who did their best. I wont spend days upon days and hours upon hours asking and begging and pleading with a cloaked figure who could be a robot to give me some spare change. especially when i have the ability to go out and make a decent wage all on my own.

if a benevolent god did make me, he would have given me everything I need to succeed in this world (whether I asked him to or not), and as long as I have done my best and given all that i could in this life that could be my one and only life in this world, i dont see why such a god would have anything more to ask of me.

and thats my two cents for the night folks. goodnight. 

[Naesala]

Nice points. But where as the parrallel is asking the figure for some change, the initial prayer in this thread was asking for god to cure someone of cancer. Kind of a big differance eh? Not something you can really do on your own. And like I said, a prayer is a request. If your prayers are demands and pleading and repeated begging then it's not so much praying as pestering. Live your life your own way sure, but I'll put my bets on what I feel is the better side.

Now for something to the original post. The point of this thread is that an atheist would not believe in god regardless of proof. The example proof was miracles, which caused us to get off topic talking about analyzing miracles. So, I propose a question that I feel will refocus the thread: What would prove God? Based on the previous posts nothing can prove god, it can only at best prove that your grip on reality is failing or that some supernatural entity exists but it cannot be determined what it may be, and in most cases the response seems to be science will eventually figure it out. So, what would be proof of God to an atheist?

[darkrobe]

Nice points. But where as the parrallel is asking the figure for some change, the initial prayer in this thread was asking for god to cure someone of cancer. Kind of a big differance eh? Not something you can really do on your own. And like I said, a prayer is a request. If your prayers are demands and pleading and repeated begging then it's not so much praying as pestering. Live your life your own way sure, but I'll put my bets on what I feel is the better side.

Now for something to the original post. The point of this thread is that an atheist would not believe in god regardless of proof. The example proof was miracles, which caused us to get off topic talking about analyzing miracles. So, I propose a question that I feel will refocus the thread: What would prove God? Based on the previous posts nothing can prove god, it can only at best prove that your grip on reality is failing or that some supernatural entity exists but it cannot be determined what it may be, and in most cases the response seems to be science will eventually figure it out. So, what would be proof of God to an atheist?

as a clarification. my spare change comment could also be thought of as a metaphor. cancer included. why spend your life praying for individual  people to get healed from cancer, when you can spend your life developing a cure to cancer so that no one has to go through that experience ever again? more so than the spare change. that was my point.

[OldTrees]

I feel I need to reaffirm WHY this topic was created. It was not created because I am trying to assert that a leg spontaneously regenerating in a matter of moments is proof of God.

Instead I am saying that I feel many (not all) use lack of proof of God, as a reason not to believe, when in reality, there is essentially nothing that many of the people that assert that as proof.

I agree depending on what you mean.

Many use
Lack of proof of A to Not Believe A (NBA)

Some use
Lack of proof of A to Believe Not A (BNA)

The difference is that NBA directly follows while BNA does not directly follow from the premise.

You substituted something in the place of A when you read. Reread substituting the opposite or an alternate instead.

Now for something to the original post. The point of this thread is that an atheist would not believe in god regardless of proof. The example proof was miracles, which caused us to get off topic talking about analyzing miracles. So, I propose a question that I feel will refocus the thread: What would prove God? Based on the previous posts nothing can prove god, it can only at best prove that your grip on reality is failing or that some supernatural entity exists but it cannot be determined what it may be, and in most cases the response seems to be science will eventually figure it out. So, what would be proof of God to an atheist?

What would prove God? Verified observation of an action that necessitated the actor be divine. What verifiable observable trait indicates the action necessitated the actor be divine? That partially depends on what a God is.

[Naesala]

Could you elaborate a bit more? That answer is hardly... satisfying? I suppose is the word I'd use.

[Xenocidius]

Anything that is impossible is impossible. How can any God do an impossible thing when it goes against the very definition of the word?

Let's say a God could cure cancer. It MUST do this by somehow killing the malignant cells - whether through some kind of psychic radiation we haven't discovered yet, by early-1.20 Flooding, or whatever.

Now let's apply this to the idea of growing back a limb. Maybe a God could somehow super-speed up the reproduction of cells in the leg. Is that physically possible? If not, that God can't do it. Unless you're suggesting your God can break the laws of physics?

Basically, I find the notion of something impossible happening ridiculous. Hence why I find this whole argument ridiculous.

[darkrobe]

Im with Oldtrees on this one. perhaps even more so. The problem with proving god, is that you have to first define what god is. and then prove that said god exists. we cannont come up with a proof until god is defined, and we have as yet not found a way to adequately define what god is or would be.

But im getting into why someone would choose to be Ignostic or agnostic.

[OldTrees]

Could you elaborate a bit more? That answer is hardly... satisfying? I suppose is the word I'd use.

I answered the question with a further question. I did not answer it with an answer because I do not have one. What observable trait can an action have that would indicate that it necessitated the actor be divine? I don't know however that is the criteria my mind uses. Does anyone else know what type of a trait would fulfill the criteria?

[darkrobe]

Yes exactly, If you want us to come up with a test that would prove gods existence to an athiest. define said god and how it would interact with the world. then we could design a proof. The problem here is that we speak of god vaguely. how do you prove a vague concept? we first must define god more fully. I suggest that people do that now. and then we can go about proving athiests wrong

Edit: if you want to read more on what im talking about you can ask wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theological_noncognitivism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theological_noncognitivism)