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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg307613#msg307613
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2011, 06:16:33 pm »
Yes, a good idea for a topic. In particular I find sleep paralysis fascinating.

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg307965#msg307965
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2011, 02:05:15 am »
I neither agree or disagree with pascals wager btw. I lean towards the agreeing side for those who don't understand both sides which is likely the majority, idk, I'm not an expert on that.

In some cultures marriage comes before love. It's very closed minded to believe religion can't come before belief. I find that close minded and flawed. I agree with that on pascals wager.

Secondly, to truly say you live a fuller life on either side requires actually living on both sides. If this is not true, then I must have the biggest "thing thing" on this forum, dispite not actually knowing that or having the desire to know that. (Gotta love or hate my sick sense of humor.) Secondly, unfortunately this dosn't apply to the metephor I've given but de gustibus non est disputandum. "There is no accounting for the tastes" and to say you live a fuller life with or without religion is a matter of opinion and this can only be accurate once you have and have not live with religion. There are also a lot of religions to argue this with.

You could even say both sides of the argument are wrong (this is why I neither agree nor disagree -->) until they've experience both sides and even then they would only be right for themselve because it's all a matter of opinion.

My point on paranormal research is, not only is calling this a wager not only poetic, it's exactly what it is. Most people perfer to take the best bet so if you look for signs proving and disproving you will likely find something. I understand the wager implies there is nothing to lose and everything to gain but you can't ignore the anti pascal wager arguments and I think signs are worth taking into consideration.


Off Topic:

I will be opening up a thread on that soon. I don't want to find the resources to state a case at this moment (feel free to open one before me). However, I will say to really look at what your lumping the evidence in with. Firstly, everyone can look at it the evidence at any time, compared to sporadic sleep parylization, or guardian angel accounts. It is extremely tangible. Secondly, the sheer amount of it and with the new technology towards it, that you likely don't know of because you seem disinterested in the evidence being anything other than hog wash  (just my first thoughts), and the quality, is greatly reducing the chance of this being the product of "suggestion."

You can certaintly look at one piece of evidence, call it luck, and say it's your mind playing tricks on you. Look at the entire evidence and each piece supports the next as plausible. Also, these guys aren't reinventing the wheel. They're going to previously known haunted locations and applying new technologies to gain more evidence. They're layering evidence to make skeptics sound like their mind screwing them selfs into disbelief as much as people "make shit up" and mind screw themselves into belief on other things.

Though there is some amount of proof this evidence is ghosts, mostly audio proves that which unfortunately, IMO is the shakiest evidence because this is where the power of suggestion stand the highest risk of being prevelent. The evidence of it being ghost is intelligent answers recorded. Not just "ghosts" randomly saying "hi, die, kill, death, the devil, help me, etc etc" but answering to questions such as "what is your name" and investigators getting answers such as "Bridget." Which was a relevent name during the Salem investigations. Then asking for a last name and getting "bishop." This is extremely relevent because Bridget Bishop was the first victim in the Salem witch trials. However, the ears are more succeptable to suggestion than a photo. It really just depends how much this evidence needs to be layered and by how many different people before you say, ok... some of this is undisputable.

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg308089#msg308089
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2011, 08:34:52 am »
Basically, here's my version of Pascal's Wager, which is every bit as valid as the original one.

My god only allows atheists to go to heaven, so I get a decision matrix that looks like this:

God Doesn't ExistGod Exists
Theist00
Atheist0Infinity
So according to my matrix, atheism is the "logically sound" choice.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg308253#msg308253
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2011, 04:27:46 pm »
Basically, here's my version of Pascal's Wager, which is every bit as valid as the original one.

My god only allows atheists to go to heaven, so I get a decision matrix that looks like this:

God Doesn't ExistGod Exists
Theist00
Atheist0Infinity
So according to my matrix, atheism is the "logically sound" choice.
Correction:
According to the above matrix "not believing in a deity that punishes belief" is the strictly superior option.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
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WrekX

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg308298#msg308298
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2011, 05:52:47 pm »
^^^^^

Yes, your risking infinity, not gaining infinity.

QuantumT

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg308307#msg308307
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2011, 06:21:55 pm »
Basically, here's my version of Pascal's Wager, which is every bit as valid as the original one.

My god only allows atheists to go to heaven, so I get a decision matrix that looks like this:

God Doesn't ExistGod Exists
Theist00
Atheist0Infinity
So according to my matrix, atheism is the "logically sound" choice.
Correction:
According to the above matrix "not believing in a deity that punishes belief" is the strictly superior option.
And there you have exactly why Pascal's Wager is totally ludicrous. It presents a completely false dichotomy. It acts like there are only 2 possible positions, but in reality there are many choices that can be made.

Offline Pineapple

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg308340#msg308340
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2011, 07:09:27 pm »
I don't understand how the two dichotomies are false...they're both A or not A

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg308381#msg308381
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2011, 08:02:57 pm »
I don't understand how the two dichotomies are false...they're both A or not A
Agreed Pascal's Wager
When choosing to believe or not to believe in a deity that punishes/rewards disbelief/belief it is in your best interest to disbelief a god that punishes belief/rewards disbelief and to believe in one of the gods that rewards belief/punishes disbelief.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg308525#msg308525
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2011, 10:46:47 pm »
K then edit mine to say that he punishes belief in any diety whatsoever.

Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg308528#msg308528
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2011, 10:50:54 pm »
In my experience, I cannot make myself believe something.  That is being dishonest with myself.  No matter my desire, my BELIEF is always by default going to be what I see as most likely to be true.  There are a lot of pretty convoluted concepts of the word "belief" out there these days.

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg308532#msg308532
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2011, 10:55:35 pm »
^^^^^

It's disproven because under "god exists" there should be "infinity and -infinity". (see below)


God Doesn't ExistGod Exists
Theist0Infinity & (-Infinity)
Atheist0Infinity & (-Infinity)
^^^^ Because you have to prove that god only rewards it's believers and punishes non-believers.  What if god punishes it's believers in the after life? What god only rewards atheists? What if god punishes everyone? What if god rewards everyone? Regardless of how unlikely you may feel these are you must logicialy disprove every other possibility of gods rewards and punishments.  Pascals wager is disproven until then.

Keep in mind, pascals wager works great on a biblical basis because you've been given the image of god. However, an atheist has no image of god. A god could be anything and your partially assuming your religion is the only religion that is right.

Your also assuming that a right religion has been created. Thus, if you stop assuming that the right religion has been created, there could be a god that rewards atheism and self sufficiency and punishes theism. No one would know this religion because it rewards atheism. See how that works? No one would know about this god because because it has no believers. Just that example of a different religion with a completely different god completely inverts pascals wager making both squares under "god exists" "Infinity & (-Infinity)"

------------------------------------------

Once again, however unlikely these scenarios, logically you can't prove pascals wager. However, I think we have missed a very important philosophical message. (Even if it is a blunder?) Perhaps we should place a bet. I've always gone from soft christian to soft atheist. Maybe it's wise to make a decision. Because if i'm part soft christian I may lose favour with the god that rewards atheism.

Edit: I just realized there's a possibility of a god who rewards people who don't make up their minds. Darn logic.

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Re: Pascal's Wager https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23629.msg308535#msg308535
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2011, 11:00:29 pm »
In my experience, I cannot make myself believe something.  That is being dishonest with myself.  No matter my desire, my BELIEF is always by default going to be what I see as most likely to be true.  There are a lot of pretty convoluted concepts of the word "belief" out there these days.
QFT.


@QuantumT
You might want to scan back at he previous comments about adding additional gods into the wager. The end result was once you start considering all the possible gods including those that appear nonsensical then all options become equally opportune (including walking both east and west at the same time). Such a diverse collection of possible gods has the downside that both rationality and irrationality become equality valid. So a subset of possible gods needs to be considered or irrationality should be considered.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

 

anything
blarg: