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Offline doublecrossTopic starter

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Pascal's Gambit (Bear with me) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28663.msg366332#msg366332
« on: July 15, 2011, 06:02:26 am »
Pascal, a mathematician (and one of the founders of probability theory)
listed the following as his reason for believing in god.

(But first some probability theory)

There is a concept in probability called expected value, where you take every possibility, multiply the value by its probability, and sum all of them.

Example: If there is a bag with 10 tiles that say 5, 3 tiles that say 15, and 1 that says 100,
the expected value is ((5*(10/14))+(15*(3/14))+(100*(1/14)))

Simple enough.

By comparing expected values of various choices, one can mathematically determine which is best.

Imagine a button (A) that is 10% chance to give you $1,000,000  and 90% chance to take $100 away from you.
Another button (B) will give you $50   half the time, and $100 half the time


the expected value of (A) is (0.1*1,000,000) - (0.9 * 100)  = 100,000 - 90 = 999,910
the expected value of (B) is (.5 * 50) + (.5 * 100) = 75

obviously, (A) is better, despite the fact that 90% of the time, you lose 100


Pascal applied this concept to religion

Imagine there are two choices, believe in God (A) or don't (B)

first, (A) [you believe]
imagine that the chance of God existing is something arbitrarily small, say, 1%
the reward for believing is infinite (infinite heaven), and the penalty for believing and being wrong is some wasted time (lets call that -100)

the expected value of believing in God, even if the chance of God existing is super tiny is
(.01*infinity)-(.99*-100) = infinity

now, (B) [you don't believe]
the reward for having been right is that not only did you not waste your time believing, but you also felt superior all your life to the illogical believers (100)
the penalty is hell (- infinity)
(.99*100)- (.01* infinity) = negative infinity

infinity is much better than negative infinity


Thus, Pascal mathematically showed that unless one could say that the chance of God existing is 0, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it makes mathematical sense to believe.


Thus, Pascal believed in God.


Again, the math above shows that if the probability of God's existence is anything other than 0, even by .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001, then mathematically it would be to your advantage to believe.
Thoughts?


That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. Speak the truth even when your voice falters.

Re: Pascal's Gambit (Bear with me) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28663.msg366353#msg366353
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2011, 07:14:44 am »
Pascal's argument doesn't admit the possibility of of a God who rewards a person who does not believe in things that they do not have evidence for.

Offline Bloodshadow

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Re: Pascal's Gambit (Bear with me) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28663.msg366366#msg366366
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2011, 08:02:39 am »
Well, if you apply this to the Christian God, why can't I apply this to the Flying Spaghetti Monster? What makes your God better than the FSM? Choosing what god to believe in is rather arbitrary at this point.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Offline doublecrossTopic starter

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Re: Pascal's Gambit (Bear with me) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28663.msg366396#msg366396
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2011, 10:52:05 am »
Thank you. I was hoping someone would notice that.


(I am not a believer in the Christian God, btw)

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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Pascal's Gambit (Bear with me) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28663.msg366595#msg366595
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2011, 05:21:42 pm »
I wish you had posted in an older thread with the same topic. This has been discussed quite extensively already.

Offline doublecrossTopic starter

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Re: Pascal's Gambit (Bear with me) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28663.msg366601#msg366601
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2011, 05:26:40 pm »
I hadn't realized that there was an older one (from at least a month ago).

OldTrees pointed it out to me in a PM last night.

I did not mean to create a duplicate thread.

This way might gain new comments, because people tend to be more original when they aren't afraid of restating things already said, but I can remove the topic, if you'd wish.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. Speak the truth even when your voice falters.

Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Pascal's Gambit (Bear with me) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28663.msg366623#msg366623
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2011, 06:01:20 pm »
I hadn't realized that there was an older one (from at least a month ago).

OldTrees pointed it out to me in a PM last night.

I did not mean to create a duplicate thread.

This way might gain new comments, because people tend to be more original when they aren't afraid of restating things already said, but I can remove the topic, if you'd wish.
No, it's ok. There's a really cool video near the end of the other thread if anyone's interested.

Re: Pascal's Gambit (Bear with me) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28663.msg366637#msg366637
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2011, 06:25:39 pm »
No, it's ok. There's a really cool video near the end of the other thread if anyone's interested.
I tracked it down.
I think this very nice Youtube video dispells Pascal's wager nicely.

(Youtube being intellectual? Oh my)
Not terribly insightful, but it has some pretty horses and it sums up the "refutations" of Pascal's gamble with destiny (or what i understand of them) pretty nicely, if a bit slowly and with perhaps a hint of spite.

Offline Belthus

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Re: Pascal's Gambit (Bear with me) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28663.msg366668#msg366668
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2011, 07:54:25 pm »
How do you know what the rewards/punishments for belief or nonbelief are? You don't. You just made them up to conform to your preconceived notions. If I get to posit the punishment for belief as negative infinity, then it would be better not to believe. You can't create information out of thin air. If you know nothing, then you know nothing. No deduction can get you beyond nothing.

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Re: Pascal's Gambit (Bear with me) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28663.msg366693#msg366693
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2011, 08:33:02 pm »
Exactly. Everything in this gambit is arbitrary. You can just claim that hopping on one foot in your underwear in public will get you to heaven, while not doing that will get you to hell. Thus, it makes mathematical sense to hope on one foot wearing only your underwear in public.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Pascal's Gambit (Bear with me) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28663.msg366720#msg366720
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2011, 09:17:07 pm »
No, it's ok. There's a really cool video near the end of the other thread if anyone's interested.
I tracked it down.
I think this very nice Youtube video dispells Pascal's wager nicely.

(Youtube being intellectual? Oh my)
Not terribly insightful, but it has some pretty horses and it sums up the "refutations" of Pascal's gamble with destiny (or what i understand of them) pretty nicely, if a bit slowly and with perhaps a hint of spite.
I really liked the horses and the music and the cool background. I hate to admit it, but I kinda liked the spite -- I've heard the same basic argument that Pascal makes by so many proselytizing Christians (in person, on billboards, on bumper stickers, those church bulletin boards, etc.) that I have some resentment for it. Even before I was atheist I still wasn't Christian, so that stuff's been an annoyance since the time I was very little.


Exactly. Everything in this gambit is arbitrary. You can just claim that hopping on one foot in your underwear in public will get you to heaven, while not doing that will get you to hell. Thus, it makes mathematical sense to hope on one foot wearing only your underwear in public.
I think that's really the message we're supposed to come away from this with. Everyone, get to it!

*removes clothing*
At last, I'm free!

*hops*

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Re: Pascal's Gambit (Bear with me) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28663.msg388633#msg388633
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2011, 08:44:28 pm »
If you're going to believe in something arbitrary at least put you faith into something worth it.
I always like people that believe themselves god, at least they know the trick,after all you can't go wrong with believing in yourself :))

 

blarg: