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Offline ratcharmerTopic starter

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Mathematics of the supernatural https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10244.msg125064#msg125064
« on: July 26, 2010, 09:40:15 pm »
Yes, it's a weird title.

So my problem with the supernatural is not that I believe it doesn't exist, but that I feel the term "supernatural" is something of a misnomer. Allow me to explain:

The natural world is what can and does happen around us on a day to day basis. The laws of nature (physics, chemistry etc.) are mathematics that define how nature behaves.

These laws as we know them are based on our current understanding of the world. If we encounter something that does not fit with them as scientists we do not say "well I suppose the universe doesn't have any rules after all", instead we say "I suppose the rules we had weren't quite right, time to revise".

Simply put, if something exists then by definition it is part of nature and the laws thereof. This includes God. Simply because our understanding of the world has not yet defined God does not mean it never will, nor does it imply God's non-existence.

This is the largest logical fallacy behind modern atheism. "If I can explain it, then it can't be attributed to God"

Consider the following: a man is at trial for shooting someone. When asked to speak in his own defense the man carefully, and it great detail, explains how the bullet traveled through the air and where it struck his victim, he explains the chemical reaction that caused the explosion that launched the bullet, and the mechansim of the gun. He then goes on to explain in exhaustive detail the mechanics of how he pulled the trigger an which muscle groups were involved in pulling it. He then goes further, explaining the reaction in his neurons that triggered those muscles, and even traces back what in turn triggered those neurons to neurons in his brain and hormones in his blood.

Does this explanation show the man to be innocent? After all, he clearly just showed that his victim being shot was the result of purely natural and well-defined processes.

No, of course it doesn't. It provides more detail on the crime, but it does not remove the man's will from it. Even if someone manages to mathematically define the will that drives us, it is no less the will that drives us.
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Now onto a second point.

Within physics, chemistry etc. there exists an overwhelming array of different variables, all used to calculate things about the world around us. Of these variables, only a vanishingly small number can be perceived directly by a human being. We can see the dimensions of objects, feel temperature and force, and our eyes can gauge the intensity of light. There may be one or two others, but not many.

Even among those we can directly perceive, there are even fewer that we can quantify without the use of instrumentation. You could feel the pressure if I pushed on your hand, but you could only provide the roughest of estimates of how hard I was pushing.

Yet we have used these modest tools to solve huge fields of science. This is no small accomplishment.

However, I must remain unconvinced that it is possible to solve for all variables. Think about it; there are literally infinite ways one could put together a mathematically defined universe, and only in a vanishingly small fraction of these would it be possible to discover/solve for all of the variables in that universe using mathematics, logic, and the scientific method.

I will use poltergeist activity as an example because I do not believe it to be one many people reading this will have strong emotions about and hopefully can look at it somewhat objectively. It is also less complicated to explain.

Consider the possibility of a particle moving through a 6 dimensional space. 4 of these are the ones we experience on a day-to-day basis (I am counting time as an axis), and then there are two others that we cannot perceive, but intersect with our reality at a single point along each of these two axis.

Suppose that when this particle passes through these two points it interacts with the world we see in some small way, say to impart an amount of kinetic energy upon any object it collides with.

Next suppose that a scientist noticed the effect of this particle during one of his experiments. What does our scientist friend do? Well like any good scientist he/she will repeat the experiment.

Except when the scientist repeats the experiment, the particle will have moved on, and his/her results will change. The scientist will then find that this new result is repeatable and conclude that the initial result was due to an error.

Herein we have a perfectly ordered, mathematically defined system that the scientific method could never accurately define. This system in no way, shape or form conflicts with what we know of the universe and could easily be true. This system could also explain a phenomena that many people claim to have witnessed.

There are literally infinite such systems possible. In fact such things are possible for every aspect of the world as we know it.

Please do not misread my intent. I do not believe the hypothetical 6-dimensional particle exists, and would be shocked to learn it did. It was just an example of one of the infinite array of possibilities. Of this infinite array only a vanishingly small number of possible universes could be accurately defined using scientific methods alone.

I consider myself a scientist. I am a microbiology PhD student and I wholeheartedly believe that science is a wonderful tool for examining things logically, but science has limitations.

I hope I wasn't too excessively technical. Let me know if this makes sense.

Offline Bloodshadow

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Re: Mathematics of the supernatural https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10244.msg125071#msg125071
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2010, 09:52:07 pm »
In short, nothing escapes cause and effect. A certain event happens because another event caused it to happen. If there is no cause, then the event will not happen.

I believe that science explains the causes of events; this is not limited to our present-day science. If our current understanding of science cannot explain something, fine; but if science itself cannot explain something, that is not possible. Thus, Science is God.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Offline ratcharmerTopic starter

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Re: Mathematics of the supernatural https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10244.msg125093#msg125093
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2010, 10:28:27 pm »
I believe that science explains the causes of events; this is not limited to our present-day science. If our current understanding of science cannot explain something, fine; but if science itself cannot explain something, that is not possible. Thus, Science is God.
Science attempts to explain the causes of events. In the second part above I have detailed an instance in which scientific method would lead to an erroneous conclusion, even when done correctly. There are so many such possibilities that I would argue that it is silly to assume that none of them exist in the world.

Thus, science cannot be treated as absolute, and other tools are needed to get a clear picture of the universe.

*edit: upon reviewing this statement I have decided that erroneous is not the correct term so much as incomplete would be. I didn't want to change the original text since that could cause confusion.

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Re: Mathematics of the supernatural https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10244.msg125927#msg125927
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2010, 10:09:46 pm »
Science attempts to explain the causes of events. In the second part above I have detailed an instance in which scientific method would lead to an erroneous conclusion, even when done correctly.
But there is still a scientific explanation about the anomaly caused by that 6D hyperparticle. When science is advanced enough, it will be able to detect those particles, thus establishing the correct conclusion. Unless, of course, the intersection of that hyperparticle with our universe only happens once, and never again; but such a thing isn't really possible, since what happened once will happen again, as long as there is a cause for it.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: Mathematics of the supernatural https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10244.msg126104#msg126104
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2010, 01:33:09 am »
But there is still a scientific explanation about the anomaly caused by that 6D hyperparticle. When science is advanced enough, it will be able to detect those particles, thus establishing the correct conclusion. Unless, of course, the intersection of that hyperparticle with our universe only happens once, and never again; but such a thing isn't really possible, since what happened once will happen again, as long as there is a cause for it.
The problem is that science alone can never make this jump. The system with the hyperparticle is set up such that the phenomena will invariably be dismissed as experimental error, and unless you already knew to look for it, or it also affected some other physical process in some predictable way, it would never be noted by a standard scientific approach.

An alternate approach would be needed to solve this case.


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Re: Mathematics of the supernatural https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10244.msg126223#msg126223
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2010, 05:23:26 am »
Assuming that we have an infinite amount of time, then what can happen, will happen eventually. Given enough time, our technological equipments will be able to detect those 6-dimensional hyperparticles when they intersect with our universe. I don't pretend to understand quantum theory, but I think it basically says that nothing is real until it's observed; thus, if something is real, it must be observable one way or another.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: Mathematics of the supernatural https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10244.msg126430#msg126430
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2010, 02:12:38 pm »
I'm not saying it would never happen, I'm saying it would never happen if we stuck strictly to the scientific method.

I could easily design a machine that would detect the hyperparticle using technology available today. The problem is that such a machine would need to cover a very large area, have a very low error rate, and be sensitive enough to detect even modest abnormalities. All this adds together to mean that detecting the hypothetical hyperparticle would be incredibly expensive, and no one could gather supporting evidence that would be considered scientifically credible.

Thus a scientific approach wouldn't discover the hyperparticle, because it would never look for it.

Don't read to much into the example (not that you have, Bloodshadow, just a word of caution to anyone reading). Science is still a valuable asset, and I am not trying to argue this hyperparticle exists. The hyperparticle was simply the easiest example I could come up with for a literally infinite number of potential phenomena that science would be entirely blind to.

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Re: Mathematics of the supernatural https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10244.msg126982#msg126982
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2010, 04:49:29 am »
There is no such thing as "never". If it is possible that the hyperparticle can be discovered by science, it will be discovered, eventually. There's no telling of what might happen if we take time all the way to infinity.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: Mathematics of the supernatural https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10244.msg129809#msg129809
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2010, 05:32:24 pm »
It's easy to get to never if you rigorously apply a well defined set of rules. Try this:

Start with n=0. Each second either add or subtract 2.

n will never equal 3

The point is not that the human race wouldn't ever discover the phenomena I've described, the point is that if we insist on applying a specific set of rules to how we investigate, we are effectively blinding ourselves to many possibilities.

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Re: Mathematics of the supernatural https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10244.msg139022#msg139022
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2010, 05:27:39 am »
I mostly agree with Bloodshadow here, except for the point that even if given an infinite amount of time, I'm not sure science would discover everything.  That said...

ratcharmer, I'm not quite sure what you were getting at with the guy explaining the bullet in court.  Can you explain the intent of the metaphor a bit more?

As for the six dimensional particle:  I'm curious what you think the scientific method entails.  You seem to be saying that it is a strict set of well defined rules that cannot be broken.  The bare bones scientific method is just:
Hypothesis/Prediction -> Experiment/Observe -> Analyze/Report -> Rinse/Repeat

Who says luck or intuition can't enter into this?  Why do you think it's so rigid?

Quote
However, I must remain unconvinced that it is possible to solve for all variables. Think about it; there are literally  infinite ways one could put together a mathematically defined universe, and only in a vanishingly small fraction of these would it be possible to discover/solve for all of the variables in that universe using mathematics, logic, and the scientific method.
You are right to be unconvinced, because mathematicians, logicians, and scientists certainly are.  There was a time it was believed that if we knew all variables, we could simply "plug and chug" our way to all the answers, but this ended at the start of the 20th century when classical Newtonian physics was overturned.  The universe was not as deterministic as we thought, and things aren't so neat and pretty.

In math, most models of the natural world are non-linear differential equations, about 95% of which cannot be solved.  In logic, Godel found in the 1920s that no logical language of any useful complexity can ever be totally consistent and complete (i.e., it must either contain a true sentence that it cannot prove, or a contradiction).  Therefore, math cannot be reduced to a base of formal logic, instead it's an "art" without rigid rules.  In science, even IF would could account for EVERY variable, we could not measure them accurately enough (to infinite decimal places) to ward off chaos.

In short, pretty much every scientist on the planet will agree with you, since what you stated is not the goal of science.

Quote
The problem is that science alone can never make this jump. The system with the hyperparticle is set up such that the phenomena will invariably be dismissed as experimental error, and unless you already knew to look for it, or it also affected some other physical process in some predictable way, it would never be noted by a standard scientific approach.
Again, look at chaos theory.  Newtonian thought had a vice-like grip on the scientific world for hundreds of years.  In the 1890s, Poincare first discovered what we would now call chaos.  And what happened?  He largely ignored it (although he did write a description of the butterfly effect some 20 years later).  No one could grasp the gravity of what he had discovered, and the problem was ignored (because it was part of a question that everyone assumed Newtonian physics answered).

Some 70 years later, Lorenz proves the existence of chaos, and 20 years after that it was accepted into mainstream science.  After that, several researchers--particularly those dealing with electrical signals--realized they had been seeing chaos for decades, but no one had the right mindset to understand what they were witnessing.  They couldn't see what they saw, and disregarded it as simple "noise" in their signals.

Disregarding something they didn't understand is exactly what you say people will do with the six dimensional particle, and yet chaos theory exists today in spite of it.  I'm guessing you're familiar with Kuhn's structure of scientific revolutions?  We will persist in one mindset until another is absolutely undeniable, and the transition is abrupt (unless you're on the fringe).  You don't understand how we would find the six dimensional particle because our mindset is not equipped for it.  But there's no way to know today how we will perceive the future, just as a few decades ago almost no one could perceive chaos as we do today.

Quote
I could easily design a machine that would detect the hyperparticle using technology available today. The problem is that such a machine would need to cover a very large area, have a very low error rate, and be sensitive enough to detect even modest abnormalities. All this adds together to mean that detecting the hypothetical hyperparticle would be incredibly expensive, and no one could gather supporting evidence that would be considered scientifically credible.
Ignoring the fact that CERN's incredibly expensive LHC is designed in part to test for higher dimensions that may lead to finding your [admittedly hypothetical] particle, I think you're losing perspective on history.  We're on the precipice of the unknown, but history is full of examples where claims exactly like yours could have been made.

Leonardo da Vinci conceived of helicopters and airplanes, yet it was probably costly and dangerous to build them.  So do you think da Vinci had any concept of the cost or technology in a Boeing 747?  And yet they exist a mere 450 years after he lived, even though in his time someone may have said something similar to what you're saying now about the particle.

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Re: Mathematics of the supernatural https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10244.msg139574#msg139574
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2010, 03:45:09 am »
My intent was not to try to overthrow science with this topic-quite the opposite.

After all, I'd be putting myself out of work if I did.

What I was trying to show here is that it is entirely possible to have a logical, mathematically defined system that is consistent with both current scientific theory and most religious teachings.

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As far as a few of the specific questions go:

-The bullet in court: I was attempting to show that all the scientific data in the world cannot remove the possibility of an intent behind something happening. Many times scientific studies about something are pointed to as evidence that it could not have had a "supernatural" origin. No matter how much detail I know about how your nerves work, it does not prove you aren't a thinking being.

-One of the few things that all scientific fields require is that a result must be repeatable to be considered valid. If there is an element you are not aware of and cannot control in an experiment, then you will not get consistent data, and it will be thrown out and chalked up to experimental error.
It is true that the LHC and other things such as underground neutrino detectors are being used to look for things similar to the hypothetical particle I described, but such things were only built because the phenomena described were predicted as the result of other findings.
If there were such a case that did not connect to other findings then there would be no way to predict the effects of an unknown particle/force, so no one would know what to look for when testing it. With the LHC they can test for a specific sort of higher dimension, because current theory predicts that those dimensions would have specific measurable effects. Without the preceding observations, no one would have said "hey I'm bored-let's go build a giant ring to smash particles together and create tiny black holes."

-Kuhn's structure was sort of what I was getting at. It's silly and unreasonable to assume current theories are so complete as to rule out any possibility of "supernatural" phenomena (I use quotes because I really don't like that term).

-I was not trying to say we will never discover something like the particle/make that sort of intuitive jump. I was trying to indicate that often a scientific inquiry must be primed by a question raised in an outside field.

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Maybe this will help:

You can feel it if something pushes on you. You can also tell, for absolute certain, that a butterfly doesn't push on you as hard as a speeding truck. It is also possible to build a machine to quantitatively  measure how hard something is pushing (measure force).

You can also feel sadness. You can say for absolute certainty that the death of a loved one is more sad than dropping a cookie. But no one knows how to build a machine that measures sad.

If no one had ever figured out how to measure force, what would the difference between the two be?

And this is why the currently prevailing attitude of "if I can't measure it, it doesn't count" is a crock of [bleep].

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Re: Mathematics of the supernatural https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10244.msg139591#msg139591
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2010, 04:07:59 am »
Quote
Simply put, if something exists then by definition it is part of nature and the laws thereof. This includes God. Simply because our understanding of the world has not yet defined God does not mean it never will, nor does it imply God's non-existence.
Are you saying this is true or false? Your next paragraph makes that unclear.

 

anything
blarg: