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IceySammy

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Jesus did not exist (link I found) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35781.msg450294#msg450294
« on: January 18, 2012, 08:47:13 pm »
I found this link a bit back now and it basically picks at the christian belief system.
"No historians of the time mention Jesus. Suetonius (65-135) does not. Pliny the Younger only mentions Christians (Paulists) with no comment of Jesus himself. Tacitus mentions a Jesus, but it is likely that after a century of Christian preaching Tacitus was just reacting to these rumours, or probably talking about one of the many other Messiah's of the time. Josephus, a methodical, accurate and dedicated historian of the time mentions John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate and many aspects of Jewish life but does not mention Jesus. (The Testimonium Flavianum has been shown to be a third century Christian fraud). He once mentions a Jesus, but gives no information other than that he is a brother of a James. Jesus was not an unusual name, either. Justus, another Jewish historian who lived in Tiberias (near Kapernaum, a place Jesus frequented) did not mention Jesus nor any of his miracles. It is only in the evidence of later writers, writing about earlier times, that we find a Jesus. What is more surprising (Jesus could simply have been unknown to local historians) is that academics note that the gospels themselves do not allude to first-hand historical sources, either!"

I myself have no problem with people believing in god or anything else, only time I do have a problem with them is when they shove it down everyone's throats and try to make others believe in it either using fear tatics or bombarding you with things out of their bible. Let me know what you think of this link :)
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_nojesus.html (http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_nojesus.html)

Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Jesus did not exist (link I found) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35781.msg450458#msg450458
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2012, 07:10:52 am »
Interesting post! I once heard Jesus' existence called into question before and what you said about Josephus, but the completeness here is very helpful.

Congrats on motherhood, btw! What a blessing.

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Re: Jesus did not exist (link I found) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35781.msg450634#msg450634
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2012, 12:58:33 am »
Interesting, though I'm rather confused by some of this- why would the Romans have knowledge/write about Christian beliefs?
My history's not the best, but I'm pretty sure that the Romans persecuted them with varying degrees of severity before the Pax Romana ended.
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Re: Jesus did not exist (link I found) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35781.msg450647#msg450647
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2012, 01:29:05 am »
With all due respect, a lot of this article is laughable. A quick Wikipedia search gave me these interesting tidbits:

Quote
Most contemporary scholars agree that Jesus was a Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire. (Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus))
Quote
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus... -Tacitus (Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus))
RE: The Gospels' Authenticity

Quote
The baptism of Jesus, his preaching, and the crucifixion of Jesus, are generally deemed to be historically authentic, while the two accounts of the nativity of Jesus, as well as certain details about the crucifixion and the resurrection, are subject to dispute. (Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus))

Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Jesus did not exist (link I found) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35781.msg450709#msg450709
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2012, 05:58:32 am »
With all due respect, a lot of this article is laughable. A quick Wikipedia search gave me these interesting tidbits:

Quote
Most contemporary scholars agree that Jesus was a Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire. (Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus))
Quote
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus... -Tacitus (Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus))
RE: The Gospels' Authenticity

Quote
The baptism of Jesus, his preaching, and the crucifixion of Jesus, are generally deemed to be historically authentic, while the two accounts of the nativity of Jesus, as well as certain details about the crucifixion and the resurrection, are subject to dispute. (Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus))
You called the article laughable, but you can't explain the issues it raises.

The important point is that it's not an open and shut case whether Jesus existed. There's some reason to doubt it -- that is, if you're not relying on faith.

Kynthea

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Re: Jesus did not exist (link I found) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35781.msg450919#msg450919
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2012, 11:49:07 pm »
I don't think that link is what I would consider "credible". It is highly skewed against Jesus existing without taking many other facts that most scholars agree on into consideration.

   There are almost no religious scholars today that believe that Jesus didn't exist. In fact most all evidence points to a man who was born in Galilee during the reign of Augustus roughly around 4 B.C.  Which oddly enough is around the time of the Census of Quirinius which would back the story of Joe and Mary being forced to travel during the time of his birth.
   There is also an official roman record stating that "Christus... was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontious Pilate."
Another historian of the time (Lucian of Samosta) stated that Christ was the man who was crucified in Palestine.
   In addition to this there has actually been quite a bit of investigation into the birth of Jesus, which seems to point to Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera being the father. This man was a Roman soldier of the time, and it is speculated that he either seduced or raped Mary causing the famed "virgin pregnancy"

   I would like everyone to note that the Roman records are about as small as I wrote them, so Rome did not find this man important , Think something more like a minor note in a courts criminal record toady. Also The part about Pantera, while accepted as fact by many people is still only speculation. Regardless it is all rather interesting stuff if you have the time to look into it, if enough people are interested I can dig up my old college books out of storage and give you more definitive sources (I double majored in Philosophy and Religion for my undergrad)

   In a nutshell I truly believe there is more than enough evidence out there to convince any reasonable person that a man named Jesus lived and died in the appropriate time frame given in the bible. However, there is absolutely no hard evidence to prove the story of the virgin birth, the miracles that were supposedly performed, or that Rome found this man to be the least bit important all of that has to be left to faith, the gospel, and other religious accounts such as the Talmud.

*edit - found two spelling errors and apparently the forums don't like my tab button -.-

IceySammy

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Re: Jesus did not exist (link I found) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35781.msg450924#msg450924
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2012, 12:02:08 am »
Interesting post! I once heard Jesus' existence called into question before and what you said about Josephus, but the completeness here is very helpful.

Congrats on motherhood, btw! What a blessing.
No problem :) I thought the link was really good and does bring into question some very interesting facts about the religeon.

Thank you about the congrats :) both of us are really looking forward to it being born on the 3rd.


With all due respect, a lot of this article is laughable. A quick Wikipedia search gave me these interesting tidbits:

Quote
Most contemporary scholars agree that Jesus was a Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire. (Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus))
Quote
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus... -Tacitus (Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus))
RE: The Gospels' Authenticity

Quote
The baptism of Jesus, his preaching, and the crucifixion of Jesus, are generally deemed to be historically authentic, while the two accounts of the nativity of Jesus, as well as certain details about the crucifixion and the resurrection, are subject to dispute. (Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus))
You do also know that Wikipedia is written by people and therefore can be changed by others and isn't complete fact? Simular to the bible in that sense, Wikipedia has been edited that much its not got too many facts in there left in there; like the bible has been edited each time it got re-written.
Also I agree with Neopergoss, you can't explain the issues it raises so unless you go by complete faith. So how is the article laughable? Without needing to use Wikipedia would be better.

Interesting, though I'm rather confused by some of this- why would the Romans have knowledge/write about Christian beliefs?
My history's not the best, but I'm pretty sure that the Romans persecuted them with varying degrees of severity before the Pax Romana ended.
From what I remember the romans were technically neo-pagans and were accepting of others religeon's. Plus I don't remember reading in that or anything else that they didn't or did write about christian beliefs, nor is there proof that they did write about it. It makes more sense about them persecuting christians if they didn't really write about it and would make sense about the neo-pagan thing as well.

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Re: Jesus did not exist (link I found) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35781.msg450930#msg450930
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2012, 12:09:28 am »
... I am still not understanding your view here. How were the romans neo-pagans? They had their own religion, and assimilated different cultures and technologies to add to their own. My question remains, why would the Romans write about a single person belonging to a recently conquered culture on the fringe of Roman society?

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IceySammy

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Re: Jesus did not exist (link I found) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35781.msg450937#msg450937
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2012, 12:54:22 am »
I don't think that link is what I would consider "credible". It is highly skewed against Jesus existing without taking many other facts that most scholars agree on into consideration.

   There are almost no religious scholars today that believe that Jesus didn't exist. In fact most all evidence points to a man who was born in Galilee during the reign of Augustus roughly around 4 B.C.  Which oddly enough is around the time of the Census of Quirinius which would back the story of Joe and Mary being forced to travel during the time of his birth.
   There is also an official roman record stating that "Christus... was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontious Pilate."
Another historian of the time (Lucian of Samosta) stated that Christ was the man who was crucified in Palestine.
   In addition to this there has actually been quite a bit of investigation into the birth of Jesus, which seems to point to Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera being the father. This man was a Roman soldier of the time, and it is speculated that he either seduced or raped Mary causing the famed "virgin pregnancy"

   I would like everyone to note that the Roman records are about as small as I wrote them, so Rome did not find this man important , Think something more like a minor note in a courts criminal record toady. Also The part about Pantera, while accepted as fact by many people is still only speculation. Regardless it is all rather interesting stuff if you have the time to look into it, if enough people are interested I can dig up my old college books out of storage and give you more definitive sources (I double majored in Philosophy and Religion for my undergrad)

   In a nutshell I truly believe there is more than enough evidence out there to convince any reasonable person that a man named Jesus lived and died in the appropriate time frame given in the bible. However, there is absolutely no hard evidence to prove the story of the virgin birth, the miracles that were supposedly performed, or that Rome found this man to be the least bit important all of that has to be left to faith, the gospel, and other religious accounts such as the Talmud.

*edit - found two spelling errors and apparently the forums don't like my tab button -.-
I believe this link is about as credible as any other piece of writing. Even if you did gather up the books you got your information from I could still say the same thing you are about this, that it isn't credible to the conversation as this person has done their research just the same as those other writers and does deserve to have their opinions, beliefs and views read. At least their views are a breath of fresh air rather than the stale gas others keep writing which is normally the same thing just with different wording and a different author name.
No offence to the books you read or your beliefs but the things you've mentioned are basically the same thing he is saying, jesus was a normal man and not some magic worker or born from a virgin etc etc.
But that is just my views.


... I am still not understanding your view here. How were the romans neo-pagans? They had their own religion, and assimilated different cultures and technologies to add to their own. My question remains, why would the Romans write about a single person belonging to a recently conquered culture on the fringe of Roman society?


I was shown and told that the romans were technically neo-pagans if you want to put a title on their beliefs. But who knows about that, no one can really say what they were but reading about their beliefs they certainly sound like neo-pagans rather than anything else.
Well why not write about a recently conquered place? They may have had new ways of doing things etc, plus the romans were some of the best historians around at the time so they wrote about anything and everything that happened around them at the time.
Think of it like this, when at school you had those lessons where you had to watch/study animals etc. You weren't part of their lives nor anything to do with their culture, you were a complete outsider, yet still you watched, studied and recorded what you saw. Every piece of writing we have of the past was done in basically the same way, we wrote about things to learn about them and to record our findings. Also they didn't only write about this person, or any one person they just wrote about what they came across, this writer just mentioned that one part as it has something to do with the rest of his writing and making it less confusing.

Kynthea

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Re: Jesus did not exist (link I found) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35781.msg450986#msg450986
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2012, 02:59:20 am »
I don't think that link is what I would consider "credible". It is highly skewed against Jesus existing without taking many other facts that most scholars agree on into consideration.

   There are almost no religious scholars today that believe that Jesus didn't exist. In fact most all evidence points to a man who was born in Galilee during the reign of Augustus roughly around 4 B.C.  Which oddly enough is around the time of the Census of Quirinius which would back the story of Joe and Mary being forced to travel during the time of his birth.
   There is also an official roman record stating that "Christus... was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontious Pilate."
Another historian of the time (Lucian of Samosta) stated that Christ was the man who was crucified in Palestine.
   In addition to this there has actually beena quite a bit of investigation into the birth of Jesus, which seems to point to Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera being the father. This man was a Roman soldier of the time, and it is speculated that he either seduced or raped Mary causing the famed "virgin pregnancy"

   I would like everyone to note that the Roman records are about as small as I wrote them, so Rome did not find this man important , Think something more like a minor note in a courts criminal record toady. Also The part about Pantera, while accepted as fact by many people is still only speculation. Regardless it is all rather interesting stuff if you have the time to look into it, if enough people are interested I can dig up my old college books out of storage and give you more definitive sources (I double majored in Philosophy and Religion for my undergrad)

   In a nutshell I truly believe there is more than enough evidence out there to convince any reasonable person that a man named Jesus lived and died in the appropriate time frame given in the bible. However, there is absolutely no hard evidence to prove the story of the virgin birth, the miracles that were supposedly performed, or that Rome found this man to be the least bit important all of that has to be left to faith, the gospel, and other religious accounts such as the Talmud.

*edit - found two spelling errors and apparently the forums don't like my tab button -.-
I believe this link is about as credible as any other piece of writing. Even if you did gather up the books you got your information from I could still say the same thing you are about this, that it isn't credible to the conversation as this person has done their research just the same as those other writers and does deserve to have their opinions, beliefs and views read. At least their views are a breath of fresh air rather than the stale gas others keep writing which is normally the same thing just with different wording and a different author name.
No offence to the books you read or your beliefs but the things you've mentioned are basically the same thing he is saying, jesus was a normal man and not some magic worker or born from a virgin etc etc.
But that is just my views.


... I am still not understanding your view here. How were the romans neo-pagans? They had their own religion, and assimilated different cultures and technologies to add to their own. My question remains, why would the Romans write about a single person belonging to a recently conquered culture on the fringe of Roman society?

I personally have a hard time finding a Satanist who studied math, biology, and physics receiving no mark higher than a C who posts on the internet just as credible as published religious scholars.

If it is credible just because someone has done their research, does that mean Joe Blow with a background in computer science could do research on medicine and post it on some website and it would be just as credible as published work in a medical journal?

Or even for that matter, could I rework my post into a research paper like format and post it on the internet and expect people to take it at face value?

Hopefully the answer to both of those questions is no

With that said I do realize he has been in several religious debates on the radio and has even published several chapters in a book about Satanism. Regardless if you read the article that you posted he claims he doubts there was a historical Jesus at all (see the second sentence in the article you posted) which is quite different than the "just human" alternative that I put forth which he does no allude to.  In addition he claims there are no records of Jesus being crucified in the first place when they do exist as aforementioned.

Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Jesus did not exist (link I found) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35781.msg451162#msg451162
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2012, 06:56:05 pm »
I don't think that link is what I would consider "credible". It is highly skewed against Jesus existing without taking many other facts that most scholars agree on into consideration.

   There are almost no religious scholars today that believe that Jesus didn't exist. In fact most all evidence points to a man who was born in Galilee during the reign of Augustus roughly around 4 B.C.  Which oddly enough is around the time of the Census of Quirinius which would back the story of Joe and Mary being forced to travel during the time of his birth.
   There is also an official roman record stating that "Christus... was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontious Pilate."
Another historian of the time (Lucian of Samosta) stated that Christ was the man who was crucified in Palestine.
   In addition to this there has actually beena quite a bit of investigation into the birth of Jesus, which seems to point to Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera being the father. This man was a Roman soldier of the time, and it is speculated that he either seduced or raped Mary causing the famed "virgin pregnancy"

   I would like everyone to note that the Roman records are about as small as I wrote them, so Rome did not find this man important , Think something more like a minor note in a courts criminal record toady. Also The part about Pantera, while accepted as fact by many people is still only speculation. Regardless it is all rather interesting stuff if you have the time to look into it, if enough people are interested I can dig up my old college books out of storage and give you more definitive sources (I double majored in Philosophy and Religion for my undergrad)

   In a nutshell I truly believe there is more than enough evidence out there to convince any reasonable person that a man named Jesus lived and died in the appropriate time frame given in the bible. However, there is absolutely no hard evidence to prove the story of the virgin birth, the miracles that were supposedly performed, or that Rome found this man to be the least bit important all of that has to be left to faith, the gospel, and other religious accounts such as the Talmud.

*edit - found two spelling errors and apparently the forums don't like my tab button -.-
I believe this link is about as credible as any other piece of writing. Even if you did gather up the books you got your information from I could still say the same thing you are about this, that it isn't credible to the conversation as this person has done their research just the same as those other writers and does deserve to have their opinions, beliefs and views read. At least their views are a breath of fresh air rather than the stale gas others keep writing which is normally the same thing just with different wording and a different author name.
No offence to the books you read or your beliefs but the things you've mentioned are basically the same thing he is saying, jesus was a normal man and not some magic worker or born from a virgin etc etc.
But that is just my views.


... I am still not understanding your view here. How were the romans neo-pagans? They had their own religion, and assimilated different cultures and technologies to add to their own. My question remains, why would the Romans write about a single person belonging to a recently conquered culture on the fringe of Roman society?

I personally have a hard time finding a Satanist who studied math, biology, and physics receiving no mark higher than a C who posts on the internet just as credible as published religious scholars.

If it is credible just because someone has done their research, does that mean Joe Blow with a background in computer science could do research on medicine and post it on some website and it would be just as credible as published work in a medical journal?

Or even for that matter, could I rework my post into a research paper like format and post it on the internet and expect people to take it at face value?

Hopefully the answer to both of those questions is no

With that said I do realize he has been in several religious debates on the radio and has even published several chapters in a book about Satanism. Regardless if you read the article that you posted he claims he doubts there was a historical Jesus at all (see the second sentence in the article you posted) which is quite different than the "just human" alternative that I put forth which he does no allude to.  In addition he claims there are no records of Jesus being crucified in the first place when they do exist as aforementioned.
Let me be the first to say that I'll defer to the authority of religious scholars, at least until I've done serious research myself. Hearing both sides, it does sound like he probably existed but was not really a big deal to the Romans. I found it very interesting what was said about Jesus' supposed father. I'm sure that's a historical detail that a lot of people try to ignore.

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Re: Jesus did not exist (link I found) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35781.msg453191#msg453191
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2012, 12:05:34 am »
I think all these articles that are trying to prove or disprove any sort of God are complete waste of everyones time.

Everyone should just stop discussing religion, there is no way in hell anyone of us here can prove or disprove that Jesus existed. Whatever "so called" evidence we point out to eachother, whatever "known scholars" we point out to, we can just choose to dismiss it and not believe it. That's what you do if you don't agree with eachother, and it's complete, utter waste of time.

Seriously, guys. Better just leave it alone because these types of topics lead nowhere. What is this topic trying to achieve, even? It's just generating dispute.

To the people who are trying to prove God or Jesus doesn't exist, stop, you can't prove it.
To the people who are trying to prove God or Jesus exists, stop, you can't prove that either.

I've followed these types of topics before, many times, and the only thing everyone is doing in them is banging their heads against a wall.

 

blarg: