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Innominate

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg115782#msg115782
« Reply #60 on: July 16, 2010, 03:26:31 am »
In a static environment the rate of decline or increase of a belief is inversely proportional to life expectancy (because of death of older people). The proportion is very sensitive to environmental conditions however, and I suspect it is as johannhowitzer said, a negative logarithm. This basically means that it the rate of decline in the second of two consecutive and equal time periods is half that of the first (the length of that time period is specific to a constant).

Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg115790#msg115790
« Reply #61 on: July 16, 2010, 03:38:32 am »
Did I mention earlier that history is a pendulum?  During the Enlightenment period in Europe, atheism and agnosticism greatly increased, while religious belief declined.  It did not disappear completely, and the pendulum has since swung back a bit.

As the saying goes, those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it.  History being dependent on whole populations, I doubt we can ever escape the cycle.

Ant-n-ero

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg120321#msg120321
« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2010, 09:01:09 pm »
there will always be at least one person who believes, even if no one else does, but then again, would that still make the future atheist?

Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg120413#msg120413
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2010, 10:20:56 pm »
Is America white?

Offline Boingo

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg122722#msg122722
« Reply #64 on: July 24, 2010, 05:36:53 am »
Is America white?
America is red white and blue.
Bring back Holy Cow!

Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg122735#msg122735
« Reply #65 on: July 24, 2010, 06:38:51 am »
Ha, sort of my point, right there.

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg155746#msg155746
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2010, 03:36:25 pm »
Sorry for the necro.

Many religions have written down stories of what they say happened, the order in wich that happened, where and when.
Yet the majority of these "facts" have been disproven by science.
The bible alone mentiones 4 science-proven occurances and says jesus had a certain age while they happened, if you count that amount of years back, he was not born in the so called "year 0", as those facts give him a birth year of -8 or -4 or +4 or +8. So why believe one date in the book, when the very same person is said to be different ages at the same time?

Furthermore, the chronologic sequence in wich things are told to happen in those books, leaves many doubts. "god created earth and the sun 3 days later" The sun excisted way before the earth (or any other planet in this system) was more then a pile of gas and dust orbiting the star. So we are quite litterally the result of intergalactal waste being compressed by gravity, larger objects atracting smaller ones and thereby forming a planet. Finaly a truth in the bible "from dust to dust" yes we started as dust and will end as it.
Every single religion, pictures their deities as being one of their tribe/a person from the area they live in, wearing clothes one of their tribesmen would. Asian tribes? the deity has asian characteristics, Central african? the god has brown skin. If there would be 1 god, he/she/it would have 1 appearance, and even if "it" had the ability to shapeshift, those "not local looking" shapes would have been represented in the religious texts.  Yes i called god it, if it has to be neutral to both genders, it cant be either of them without being biased. The deity also performs things the people can not understand, examples of "i cant grasp that, nor do i understand why it happened, it must be caused by god!" are still in languages. Prime example = "Act of God" for natural Disaster that damages property, let it be a lightningstorm/flood/earthquake/volcano eruption. It all is suposedly caused by god. (funny that good things aren't "act of god")
Suprise, hardly any religion mentions their god changing skin collor, if any religion does at all. Hence all religions who describe "it" differently then how it actually looks = wrong.

Humans are proven to be evolved from apes, life on earth was litterally sparked into existance in the waters of the early planet. (science can replicate life "creation" by sending a jolt of elictricity into a protein containing bowl with water). The jolted proteins became 1 cell organisms. The organisms consisted out of: Bacteria, Viri, Animals and Plants.

Other animals (humans= mamals= animals) have lived LONG before us, so the timeline presented in those books yet again is made up and is disproven.

Lets take a closer look at the bible.

God plays with clay and makes a man, he cuts that mans rib out and makes that rib transform into a woman (transexual mutant? the rib is MALE when it gets cut out, yet becomes female after). Science: animals start as female as early embrio, and change into males if the chromoson package tells them to, otherwise they stay female.
The man (magically healed of the rib that has been cut out) proceeds to have sex with that transexual mutated rib. (Nice way to write in a book "go f.ck yourself" as he basically is having sex with his own rib)
They get 2 sons, the sons end up hating eachother and start to fight, one of them kills the other. Later on the surviving son manages to produce offspring. How can he have offspring? did he have sex with his mother? did his parrents get a daughter? either way it is incest.

Lets take a look at the suposedly 144.000 spots in heaven, if that number was true, it will be filled up fast, unless out of the billions of people that died in the past, only a very selected few would be allowed to enter. (must have been fun for the 1st person to enter, existing totaly alone) What makes believers belief that they actually have a chance to get there? if the place is reserved for perfection, (and perfection is used as total absence of evil) then no one that ever killed an animal, no one that ever made a negative remark, no one that ever was angry or annoyed about anything, no one that ever thought about the things described before, would get a spot.
Resulting in a overly paranoid, humorless, emotionless shade of a human. Must be alot of fun to be ending up in heaven then!

Ever wondered why jesus'symbol is a fish? Or why he suposedly fed loads of people with plenty of bread and 2 fish? Here is why: we are in the sun era of fishes (0-2150), sun eras are based on the time a certain nebula takes to orbit the sun. The bible itself states "when i return, it will be the end of this age (old version: era), and a man that brings water will come with me" Gues what the next solar era is? Aquarius.

This all leads to the conclusion (yes not a fact for once) that the bible is a collection of astronomy and historical occurances centered, made up stories. Telling things that did happen, or teach things in a story bound, easy to follow text was a habit at that time, and is used alot by writers between the year 100 and 500.

Offline ratcharmer

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg155828#msg155828
« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2010, 08:11:28 pm »
If I may be so bold as to put some commentary on the above post?

Many religions have written down stories of what they say happened, the order in wich that happened, where and when.
Yet the majority of these "facts" have been disproven by science.
The bible alone mentiones 4 science-proven occurances and says jesus had a certain age while they happened, if you count that amount of years back, he was not born in the so called "year 0", as those facts give him a birth year of -8 or -4 or +4 or +8. So why believe one date in the book, when the very same person is said to be different ages at the same time?

Furthermore, the chronologic sequence in wich things are told to happen in those books, leaves many doubts. "god created earth and the sun 3 days later" The sun excisted way before the earth (or any other planet in this system) was more then a pile of gas and dust orbiting the star. So we are quite litterally the result of intergalactal waste being compressed by gravity, larger objects atracting smaller ones and thereby forming a planet. Finaly a truth in the bible "from dust to dust" yes we started as dust and will end as it.
This only works for fundamentalist/Biblical literalist religions. And you might be interested in the discussion of the "Historical Contradictions" argument in in the responses thread if you're interested in  how the Bible matches up to other historical accounts.
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,9817.0.html

Every single religion, pictures their deities as being one of their tribe/a person from the area they live in, wearing clothes one of their tribesmen would. Asian tribes? the deity has asian characteristics, Central african? the god has brown skin. If there would be 1 god, he/she/it would have 1 appearance, and even if "it" had the ability to shapeshift, those "not local looking" shapes would have been represented in the religious texts.  Yes i called god it, if it has to be neutral to both genders, it cant be either of them without being biased. The deity also performs things the people can not understand, examples of "i cant grasp that, nor do i understand why it happened, it must be caused by god!" are still in languages. Prime example = "Act of God" for natural Disaster that damages property, let it be a lightningstorm/flood/earthquake/volcano eruption. It all is suposedly caused by god. (funny that good things aren't "act of god")
Suprise, hardly any religion mentions their god changing skin collor, if any religion does at all. Hence all religions who describe "it" differently then how it actually looks = wrong.
Actually in the Bible it does specifically mention God, and God's messengers "changing" to blend in with the population.

Specific examples would be the two angels who visited Lot in Genesis 19, or when Jesus appeared to his  followers in Luke 24, but they did not recognize him.

Humans are proven to be evolved from apes, life on earth was litterally sparked into existance in the waters of the early planet. (science can replicate life "creation" by sending a jolt of elictricity into a protein containing bowl with water). The jolted proteins became 1 cell organisms. The organisms consisted out of: Bacteria, Viri, Animals and Plants.

Other animals (humans= mamals= animals) have lived LONG before us, so the timeline presented in those books yet again is made up and is disproven.
SCIENCE CANNOT CREATE LIFE FROM NOTHING. The experiment you're referring to was when a researcher produced an amino acid (a single molecule that is one of 20 used in making proteins) and the model of the early earth used in this experiment is now outdated. The experiment was run by Stanley Miller in 1953, and if memory serves even Dr. Miller doesn't believe it's evidence against God creating life.
Links:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/do53am.html
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B73G9-47FX1D9-DJ&_user=10&_coverDate=12/31/1957&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1457345066&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=6cef442966067b5ceb59824207eae94c&searchtype=a

Furthermore, you cannot make a cell from just protein.

The "timeline" of the Bible only applies to a certain subset of Biblical literalists. There are NO dates in  the Bible in terms of BC/AD (or BCE/CE if you will) That system of dates did not exist before the time of Christ. The argument about the dates being inaccurate is just pointing out that the calendar is inaccurate, not the Bible.

As to the "timeline" in Genesis, the entire book of Genesis is a poem, and is generally not percieved as something meant to be literally true (except among fundamentalists, which if there are any here I'll let them speak on their own behalf. The 6000 years thing is not actually in the Bible anywhere, but was calculated by Bishop Ussher in 1648, and used both the Bible and dozens of other sources, such as the historical writings of King Nebuchadnezzar.

*Edit* I was rushed when I first posted this, I went back and added some citations & details.

Ant-n-ero

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg155880#msg155880
« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2010, 10:16:14 pm »
oh, I like you ratcharmer, you know your stuff :P

Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg157850#msg157850
« Reply #69 on: September 13, 2010, 04:38:34 pm »
Quote
The bible alone mentiones 4 science-proven occurances and says jesus had a certain age while they happened, if you count that amount of years back, he was not born in the so called "year 0", as those facts give him a birth year of -8 or -4 or +4 or +8. So why believe one date in the book, when the very same person is said to be different ages at the same time?
Oy, this is just silly.  The Bible doesn't give a date for Jesus' birth - in fact, the entire compendium is devoid of references to the calendar system we now use.  (woops, ratcharmer covered this... need to read latest post!)

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"god created earth and the sun 3 days later" The sun excisted way before the earth (or any other planet in this system) was more then a pile of gas and dust orbiting the star. So we are quite litterally the result of intergalactal waste being compressed by gravity, larger objects atracting smaller ones and thereby forming a planet.
Citation please?  The concept of creating ex nihilo kind of circumvents the problem of having a planet before its star, if you think about it for a couple seconds.  Sort of like how the concept of a deity defies all scientific examination... as Dawkins would say, "isn't that just too easy?"  Well, yes, but it's a concept we still have to take into account.

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Every single religion, pictures their deities as being one of their tribe/a person from the area they live in, wearing clothes one of their tribesmen would. Asian tribes? the deity has asian characteristics, Central african? the god has brown skin. If there would be 1 god, he/she/it would have 1 appearance, and even if "it" had the ability to shapeshift, those "not local looking" shapes would have been represented in the religious texts.
I'm sorry, I'm just getting a mental image of some alien-looking thing showing up in the middle of Jerusalem and everyone freaking out.  You'd either have social chaos or leave no room for faith... the Bible makes it pretty clear that Jesus wasn't showing up to force anyone's doctrinal hand.  It puts him in the underground, and shows he wanted people to believe in him without needing obvious signs.  He was somewhat reserved about his miracles, too, and even asked someone to keep it quiet once.

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Yes i called god it, if it has to be neutral to both genders, it cant be either of them without being biased.
If a god exists, I doubt he/she/it is terribly concerned about being PC.

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(transexual mutant? the rib is MALE when it gets cut out, yet becomes female after)
Nah, the clay was female, didn't you hear?  So it was just returning to its original form.

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Lets take a look at the suposedly 144.000 spots in heaven, if that number was true, it will be filled up fast, unless out of the billions of people that died in the past, only a very selected few would be allowed to enter.
As far as I know, Christians are kind of vague on that number, since there are a lot of questions about the passages it is found in.  (Revelation as a whole is very enigmatic.)

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(must have been fun for the 1st person to enter, existing totaly alone)
Yes, that was relevant.

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What makes believers belief that they actually have a chance to get there? if the place is reserved for perfection, (and perfection is used as total absence of evil) then no one that ever killed an animal, no one that ever made a negative remark, no one that ever was angry or annoyed about anything, no one that ever thought about the things described before, would get a spot.
According to the Bible, that is exactly the reason for Jesus - a substitute to pay the penalty for the human race's misdeeds, past and future.

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Resulting in a overly paranoid, humorless, emotionless shade of a human. Must be alot of fun to be ending up in heaven then!
- Paranoia is imperfection - it results from perceived threats, and presumably there wouldn't be any in heaven.
- Many people have claimed all humor relies on cutting down other people, but that's not the case - I, for one, enjoy word humor quite a bit, and that brand rarely involves cruelty.
- There are many emotions which are not negative.  The Bible paints a picture of heaven which has those in heaven so enraptured by the presence of God that they would never think of doing anything evil.

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The man (magically healed of the rib that has been cut out) proceeds to have sex with that transexual mutated rib. (Nice way to write in a book "go f.ck yourself" as he basically is having sex with his own rib)
Wow... I thought nothing on the internet would surprise me anymore... did he just call the alleged first woman a glorified sex doll?  :)

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They get 2 sons, the sons end up hating eachother and start to fight, one of them kills the other. Later on the surviving son manages to produce offspring. How can he have offspring? did he have sex with his mother? did his parrents get a daughter? either way it is incest.
That is an old dispute - and the solution should be obvious if you know anything about the Bible.  Laws and social stigma against incest are due to the genetic dilution that results from inbreeding, and the often-resulting birth defects.  The Bible would of course have the first many generations of humans being somewhat genetically "pure" - having none of the predispositions to congenital defects and diseases that we have now.  Incest would have been perfectly acceptable and healthy (and, as you point out, necessary) for a long time.

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Ever wondered why jesus'symbol is a fish? Or why he suposedly fed loads of people with plenty of bread and 2 fish? Here is why: we are in the sun era of fishes (0-2150), sun eras are based on the time a certain nebula takes to orbit the sun. The bible itself states "when i return, it will be the end of this age (old version: era), and a man that brings water will come with me" Gues what the next solar era is? Aquarius.
Zeitgeist much?  I like how your whole post is a stream-of-consciousness of random bits of discredited documentaries you've seen on PBS.  Zeitgeist didn't get much momentum for a reason.  Also, can you give a reference on that Bible quote?

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Furthermore, you cannot make a cell from just protein.
Yeah, ratcharmer, I laughed when I read that part too.  :D

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The 6000 years thing is not actually in the Bible anywhere, but was calculated by Bishop Ussher in 1648, and used both the Bible and dozens of other sources, such as the historical writings of King Nebuchadnezzar.
Actually I think it's supposed to be 10,000 years now.  And that's not terribly far-fetched, especially when you take into account magnetic fields, sun shrinkage, and subterranean oil pressure - Science makes a pretty convincing argument for the idea that as recently as 20,000 years ago, life in any form couldn't exist on this planet.  I can't find a reference for this right now, sorry.

Offline Daytripper

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg157925#msg157925
« Reply #70 on: September 13, 2010, 07:55:23 pm »
Wow, there is a lot here. I think we can see religions are evolving all the time. It would not surprise me if a totally new religion emerged in a few thousand years. If not, Christianity will be much more refined.

Fact is, people do not know when Jesus was born. Certainly it was not during Christmas. This date was chosen to steal an older ritual that had to do with the equinox. People also collected ''green'' then. (Hence the Christmas tree)

There are many problems with Genesis. The sun is indeed believed to be older than earth. It's a bit too difficult but I think what was said is roughly in accordance with science. What else?

*God created light before the sun.''
*God created plants before the sun.''
*God created birds and dragons at the same time.'' If dragons are dinosaurs, then, impossible. If they are dragons, impossible.

Genesis cannot co exist with evolution, if taken literally. 6 days is also too short.

If you read Genesis, then you can see this is a creation story and it includes creation of mankind. It would be awkard to conclude Adam and Eve were the ONLY people created based on that story. If so, it contradicts Genesis. Adam and Eve is just a side story. The whole idea of 2 humans being created from scratch as a basis for our whole race has many many problems. It doesn't work with evolution either. 

There are indeed many other problems. Mankind is much older than Christianity, which is another problem for heaven. The lack of uniformity is also what I consider a valid argument. If there is such a powerful God, why isn't there 1 religion?

What was said about the 20.000 years is...scary. The oldest fossils are much older than that. And then you ask others for citations!
Shards aren't overpowered, as long as you have them yourself.

Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg157997#msg157997
« Reply #71 on: September 13, 2010, 09:53:47 pm »
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*God created light before the sun.''
As I understand it, "light" is taken to mean the physics behind light, or even perhaps the light in motion from the to-be-created stars.  After all, given the young-universe model, we shouldn't be able to see some of the further-away stars yet.  The sun, after all, isn't the only source of light.

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*God created plants before the sun.''
Taking the literal model, it would have only been a couple days, and healthy plants can survive for a while before they wilt.  Just like we can go for about three days without water.

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*God created birds and dragons at the same time.'' If dragons are dinosaurs, then, impossible. If they are dragons, impossible.
There have been some reports of dinosaur-like creatures deep in African jungles, and some underwater as well.  Flash-burial is what creates fossils... if dinosaurs still DID exist in small numbers as endangered species during Biblical times (and even up to medieval times, explaining the dragon myths), we would be none the wiser.  "Dinosaur" is a recently-coined word.

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Genesis cannot co exist with evolution, if taken literally. 6 days is also too short.
Macro-evolution, no.  Small-scale special adaptation, yes.

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It would be awkard to conclude Adam and Eve were the ONLY people created based on that story. If so, it contradicts Genesis.
I'm not sure I understand this.

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Mankind is much older than Christianity, which is another problem for heaven.
There's provision in the Old Testament for that.

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The lack of uniformity is also what I consider a valid argument. If there is such a powerful God, why isn't there 1 religion?
Morgan Freeman had a line about that in Bruce Almighty.  "How do you get someone to love you without affecting free will?"  "Welcome to my world, kid."

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What was said about the 20.000 years is...scary. The oldest fossils are much older than that. And then you ask others for citations!
I was stating the literal Biblical perspective on the topic.  Do you want me to quote a religious website?  Razzen frazzen people still assuming I belong to a worldview I'm talking about...

 

anything
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