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Artois

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Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg68566#msg68566
« on: May 14, 2010, 09:15:09 am »
Are we currently running through the last huzzah of the old religions?  Are they dying out?  Is there a logical progression from many Gods, to one God, to no God?

Discuss.

Offline Zeru

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg68569#msg68569
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2010, 09:34:03 am »
When a person realizes that faith is meaningless and worthless he is likely to abandon his faith. That is why religions are strong in isolated areas where they cannot be ridiculed. The Internet is a milestone is human civilization progress. Because of that theists cannot be constantly reinforced in their beliefs by other theist. It's quite the opposite. They are shown that their claims are silly by rational people and by (oh the irony) theists from another religion. Another thing about the Internet is that by being able to talk with a person from a totally different culture zone, you can become more open-minded. And that is another characteristic that a theist should not have.

You cannot look into the future so the answer will remain unknown for quite a time. But you can see that more and more people realize that religion can simply be dangerous and abandon it. We can just hope that this process will continue and that the remaining fundamentalists won't do something extremely stupid in the way.

Offline Boingo

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg68701#msg68701
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2010, 06:01:26 pm »
Sorry to rain on the atheist parade here, but you're ignoring the facts.  Religious practices have been around for as long as we have records.  There have been atheists throughout the ages as well.  If you think that religion is only practiced in isolated pockets of the globe, then you haven't been around much.

Let's examine the 10 most populous countries which account for roughly 60% of the world's population:

1. China: Religion outlawed in 1949 with the advent of communism. Practitioners persecuted, imprisoned, killed.  Yet the 1993 edition of Atlas of Religion finds only 10-14% of Chinese citizens consider themselves atheist.  In 2007, China passes a statute recognizing religion as an important element of citizens' life.

2. India:  Hinduism alone accounts for 80% of the population. Islam and Christianity make up another 15%.  There are various smaller religious groups as well.

3. USA: 15% of US adults identify themselves as "no religious affiliation"--only a portion of these consider themselves atheist.

4. Indonesia: 85% Muslim, 9% Christian, plus Buddhist, Hindus.

5. Brazil: 74% Roman Catholic, 15% Protestant, 3% other.

6. Pakistan: 97% Muslim. 

7. Bangladesh: 83% Muslim, 16% Hindu

8. Nigeria: 51% Islam, 48% Christian

9. Russia: Soviet Union had an ideological objective of elimination of religion for decades under communist rule.  Despite this, Russians self-identify as 70% Russian Orthodox, 6% Muslim, 1% Protestant.

10. Japan: Tough call--if you include Buddhism/Shinto as a religion (vs a philosophy.)  If not, roughly 55-65% do not believe in god.

Those numbers do not describe a movement toward atheism that you seem to envision (only Japan has a minority of religious adults.)  In fact, given the examples of China and Russia where people had every incentive NOT to practice religion, it argues to the contrary. 
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Offline Wardead

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg68703#msg68703
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2010, 06:07:26 pm »
Actually, I believe Hinduism and Buddhists will get a rise at the end. They are the most-ignored religion now, but they are going up rapidly.

Artois

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg68706#msg68706
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2010, 06:12:27 pm »
I must question your figures Boingo.

Aetheism, wikipaedia.

Between 64% and 65% of Japanese describe themselves as atheists, agnostics, or non-believers,[8][9] and 48% in Russia.[8] The percentage of such persons in European Union member states ranges as low as single digits in Italy and some other countries, and up to 85% in Sweden.[8]

[8] a b c Zuckerman, Phil. "Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns", The Cambridge Companion to Atheism, ed. by Michael Martin, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge, 2005.
[9] However, data from the U.S. State Dept. may contradict this figure, since 44% are reported as adherents of Shinto, a polytheistic religion, and information was not provided on the number of respondents identifying with multiple categories. (64% atheists/agnostics/non-believers, plus 44% Shintoists, adds up to more than 100%.)

Yes, I do note point [9].

Offline Boingo

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg68711#msg68711
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2010, 06:21:21 pm »
I must question your figures Boingo.

Aetheism, wikipaedia.
I, like you, have resorted to the poor man's fact finder: wikipedia.  You can search for "Religion in ____" and click on the wikipedia entry to find the figures I've listed.  That being said, my 65% for Japan matches with your 64-65% (though your number includes agnostics and non-believers as well.)

And I do not aim to disparage Phil Zuckerman, but he makes his living on atheism so he has a potential conflict of interest in over-representing his case. The figures I used were mostly sourced from the UN or CIA factbook.
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Artois

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg68716#msg68716
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2010, 06:29:12 pm »
Have you any explanation for the once Christian Sweden having such a high ratio of aethiests?  I wouldn't be suprised if Norway & Finnland have a fair few too.

Maybe those crazy scandinavians are leading the way once more?

Offline Boingo

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg68725#msg68725
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2010, 06:43:17 pm »
Look at the population trends of the nations I listed + Sweden.  You'll note that Sweden, Russian and Japan have all fallen behind as you move from 1960 onward.  So if this is about atheism as the wave of the future, I wouldn't say Sweden is leading the world anywhere...

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&ctype=l&strail=false&nselm=h&met_y=sp_pop_totl&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:SWE:CHN:IND:IDN:BGD:JPN:NGA:RUS:USA:BRA:PAK&tstart=-315619200000&tunit=Y&tlen=48&hl=en&dl=en
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Artois

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg68731#msg68731
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2010, 06:53:17 pm »
That may be so, but having visited Sweden on occassion, I found it to be one of the most advanced society's I have encountered. 

However, the tales I've heard from visitor's to India & China do not lead me to believe, that despite the population growth, that these are particularly modern society's (on the whole).

Therefore, is it possible that Christianity & Islam, for example, like many, many religions before them, and some after it, will eventually die out?

If so, will athiesm fill the vacuum?

Offline Boingo

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg68736#msg68736
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2010, 06:58:07 pm »
Therefore, is it possible that Christianity & Islam, for example, like many, many religions before them, and some after it, will eventually die out?

If so, will athiesm fill the vacuum?
I don't have a crystal ball, but I'd consider that wishful thinking on your part.  ;)  Those religions have been around for 1000s of years and still dominate.  Atheism has never captured a majority of the planet.  Ever.
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Artois

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg68739#msg68739
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2010, 07:08:54 pm »
Its not about capturing anything, Boingo.

Atheism has never had such a high profile, and it is slowly growing, particularly amongst the thinking classes/intelligensia in the western world, and even, dare I say it, in the US.

Therefore, I propse that today's radical views on religion (atheism) will eventually become an accepted norm.  Given the choice, I therefore wonder if more people will become atheist once that situation arises, an explosion of deity denouncement amongst the masses!

Offline Boingo

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Re: Is the future Atheist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6543.msg68749#msg68749
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2010, 07:47:06 pm »
Its not about capturing anything, Boingo.

Atheism has never had such a high profile, and it is slowly growing, particularly amongst the thinking classes/intelligensia in the western world, and even, dare I say it, in the US.

Therefore, I propse that today's radical views on religion (atheism) will eventually become an accepted norm.  Given the choice, I therefore wonder if more people will become atheist once that situation arises, an explosion of deity denouncement amongst the masses!
Well, there's no use arguing over who's right about something in the distant future since nobody knows this (except God  ;) .)  But I'll ask you to explain why "the masses" would act any differently in the future than they have in the past?  China and Russia both had ardent atheist policies for decades (i.e., religion was illegal and persecuted,) yet "the masses" have chosen religion once again.  I mean, the people were already surrounded by atheists, but the majority abandoned it for religion when given the chance.
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