Is belief in Relgion dangerous?

[killybob]

all the sacred texts of the original religions clearly are in abhorrence towards the evil that has been associated with it.

Aside from the parts where the relevant deity commits or orders murder, genocide, rape, and other atrocities.

where, pray, does the deity order rape or genocide? the murder is false term as the person rightfully deserved this punishment. for example in the new testament please give me a reference to the TEACHING or ACTION of any sin at all from Jesus.

what do you have against religion and other peoples views?

[Kuu]

This is true, which is why I was arguing mostly about Organised Religion's (forgive the generalisation) propensity to have much larger and more powerful social dominance mechanisms than most other organisations, in combination with a memeplex which is often considered repressive and can be argued to glorify and promote ignorance; the only comparable organisations with similar social control are governments (which are ostensibly social welfare maximisers and tend to have inherent checks and balances) and the largest corporations (which have more legal restrictions and a less developed memeplex).

Alright, I agree that organized religion can be (and sometimes is) dangerous. This basically answers the main question. However, perhaps we should move on to the application of this knowledge. Religion can be dangerous, and as we both agreed just about anything can be dangerous. So should we destroy religion? I don't think that just because something has potential danger it need be destroyed, science after all has allot of potential danger (atom bombs anyone?) and perhaps even greater potential danger and current danger than religion.

[Ele124]

I don't think that just because something has potential danger it need be destroyed, science after all has allot of potential danger (atom bombs anyone?) and perhaps even greater potential danger and current danger than religion.

No. Science has never intentionally harmed anyone. The atomic bomb was created at the specific request of politicians and military personnel. The responsibility to use it (or not) lies in their hands and by extension their citizens hands for putting them into a position of power. Religion (or at least christianity) alters peoples perceptions to fit its own agendas and its hands are slippery with blood.

If someone put before me a big red button entitled "press this button to end all religion" then I would press it in a heartbeat and be damned with the consequences.

where, pray, does the deity order rape or genocide? the murder is false term as the person rightfully deserved this punishment. for example in the new testament please give me a reference to the TEACHING or ACTION of any sin at all from Jesus.

The old testament is stuffed full of examples where the Israelites invaded and destroyed other nations and then condone their own actions by saying that god said these people were evil.

As for the new testament, thats a bit more tricky as it is worded more carefully. Im not sure what relevance Jesus' sin commiting activities have (assuming he exists), but the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse sent by God (or perhaps Jesus?) in Revelation are on a mission of genocide. In fact, if you beleive the bible, then the one responsible for disease and general suffering is having a field-day in Africa atm.

[SeddyRocky]

all the sacred texts of the original religions clearly are in abhorrence towards the evil that has been associated with it.

Aside from the parts where the relevant deity commits or orders murder, genocide, rape, and other atrocities.

where, pray, does the deity order rape or genocide? the murder is false term as the person rightfully deserved this punishment. for example in the new testament please give me a reference to the TEACHING or ACTION of any sin at all from Jesus.

what do you have against religion and other peoples views?

Hmm... Genocide: How about killing all first-borns in Egypt who weren't jews?
And who is to say that someone "rightfully deserved this punishment"? That makes the justice process pretty arbitrary.

As for rape, see (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem.  They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards.  When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife!  And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding.  Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'"

And honestly, the Bible is filled with God commanding, condoning and encouraging the taking of women, for wives, slaves, etc. If you want more examples I can supply them.

For the new testament: The entire book of revelations. It's all murder, genocide and pillaging (and remember kids, in the Bible, women are considered plunder!). Of course, you can say "they deserved it" to that, which could be your answer to any horrible act carried out by or ordered by God.

Now personally, I don't believe that makes religion dangerous. That just makes God, should there exist such a deity, very dangerous. I believe the massive negative impact on progress, science, free thinking, etc is what makes religion dangerous. Not to mention what it has done against women, homosexuals and children. Giving people a "get out of hell free card" as long as you accept Jesus is also something which I believe is hurtful (note: Far from all churches preach this openly). And religious conflicts tend to be bloody, even within the same branch. The 30-year war for example. But all this is examples of organized religion. Individual faith, faith you find on your own, is rarely as hurtful. It can comfort and bring peace and stability after, for example, a family member dies. Religion plays a role in our society as a way of comforting, motivating force. I believe that our society would have to make a lot of progress to function without religion, as it fills a void which so far, few other things can (philosophy can be darn close though).

Is religion dangerous? Yes. So are many other ideas, but religion has a much greater impact than anything else. (Or if I'm wrong, please let me know.) So its danger potential is greater.

[Kuu]

We are going off topic.

No. Science has never intentionally harmed anyone. The atomic bomb was created at the specific request of politicians and military personnel. The responsibility to use it (or not) lies in their hands and by extension their citizens hands for putting them into a position of power. Religion (or at least christianity) alters peoples perceptions to fit its own agendas and its hands are slippery with blood.

Exactly, you prove my point. Just as religion is dangerous in the wrong hands and a gun is dangerous in the wrong hands, science is dangerous in the wrong hands. So let's find a red-science-destroying-button and destroy science now. After all, we should destroy all things that can  be dangerous right? Wrong.

If someone put before me a big red button entitled "press this button to end all religion" then I would press it in a heartbeat and be damned with the consequences.

You seem to be a rather hateful person who would destroy anything he didn't like/understand or find any personal use for. I wouldn't trust you to do my homework much less hold a political position or own a "red button" like that.

[Daxx]

I think SeddyRocky has pretty much covered the rape and genocide angle, so I'll move back onto the real discussion.

This is true, which is why I was arguing mostly about Organised Religion's (forgive the generalisation) propensity to have much larger and more powerful social dominance mechanisms than most other organisations, in combination with a memeplex which is often considered repressive and can be argued to glorify and promote ignorance; the only comparable organisations with similar social control are governments (which are ostensibly social welfare maximisers and tend to have inherent checks and balances) and the largest corporations (which have more legal restrictions and a less developed memeplex).

Alright, I agree that organized religion can be (and sometimes is) dangerous. This basically answers the main question. However, perhaps we should move on to the application of this knowledge. Religion can be dangerous, and as we both agreed just about anything can be dangerous. So should we destroy religion? I don't think that just because something has potential danger it need be destroyed, science after all has allot of potential danger (atom bombs anyone?) and perhaps even greater potential danger and current danger than religion.

I would gladly see all atomic weapons removed from the face of the planet, just as I would remove organised religion. I have no real issue with people researching whatever they want or believing whatever nonsense they want, as long as it causes no negative externalities.

[SeddyRocky]

Daxx, here I must ask: no negative externalities at all? Our vaccines and cures are researched at the expense of animals, would you get rid of them for that?

[Daxx]

Daxx, here I must ask: no negative externalities at all? Our vaccines and cures are researched at the expense of animals, would you get rid of them for that?

I didn't say that I would get rid of things purely because they produce negative externalities, merely that I would start to have issues. The balance would need to be weighed.

Incidentally I'm actually quite a vehement supporter of medical testing on animals and have been active in Pro-Test circles, but that's a different discussion for a different thread.

[Ele124]

@PoLkaTulK Nah, reckon we're still on topic. Hmm, reading over my previous post, some of my points werent entirely clear, allow me to expand on them a little.

No. Science has never intentionally harmed anyone. The atomic bomb was created at the specific request of politicians and military personnel. The responsibility to use it (or not) lies in their hands and by extension their citizens hands for putting them into a position of power. Religion (or at least christianity) alters peoples perceptions to fit its own agendas and its hands are slippery with blood.

Exactly, you prove my point. Just as religion is dangerous in the wrong hands and a gun is dangerous in the wrong hands, science is dangerous in the wrong hands. So let's find a red-science-destroying-button and destroy science now. After all, we should destroy all things that can  be dangerous right? Wrong.

Science (and in turn technology) is a powerful force, without which we would not be the dominant species on this planet and would have lost the evolutionary race long ago. Science is the noble pursuit of knowledge. Technology, which can be produced using science is regulated by the government who are regulated by us. Scientists are merely curious about whats happening out there, any misapplication of science is down to the government. If you dont trust your government to avoid using science dangerously, then thats a problem with democracy, not science. My verdict: not dangerous.

Organised religion is not in anybodies hands, it is not accountable to any democratically appointed group in the world, meaning they can do whatever they like whenever they like without any comeback on them. Throughout history they have used this freedom to coerce people into war and genocide. Many religions also seem to have the effect of closing peoples minds to other possibilities, to review the principles that they believe in. My verdict: very dangerous.

You seem to be a rather hateful person who would destroy anything he didn't like/understand or find any personal use for. I wouldn't trust you to do my homework much less hold a political position or own a "red button" like that.

Im not particularly hateful, I just write things as I see them. I dont see any point in sugar-coating things, more often than not this tends to lead to more confusion. Id like to think that I understand how religions work, but as to whether or not I do is up to you Its true that I dont have a personal use for organised religion and that I really dont like it, but that is all besides the point. This topic is about how dangerous religion is and I beleive that it is very dangerous and worthy of destruction.

*fingers crossed for red-button of doom*

Note: Just to be clear, by organised religion I am refering to mostly western style religions (e.g. christianity). I personally feel that many eastern style religions (e.g. taoism and bushism) have a lot to offer humanity.

[LongDono]

It CAN be dangerous I believe. Many things can be dangerous if used in the wrong way. I can kill someone with a medical tool of some sort, that dose not make it dangerous all the time, only when someone uses it to do bad stuff.
I believe that it can be a god thing for some people. One thing I really hate is when people use religion to justify wrong deeds. Almost if not all religions that are known have had someone use it to justify something horrible People that hide behind their religion are cowards in my view. ( when they do bad things and don't want to look like a terrbile person for it, or something like that. )

[doublecross]

To those who are interested in this thread, I believe that there is another thread that is a logical spin-off from this:

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19557.new.html#new

I suspect that those who think religion is dangerous, will tend to think that religion is a parasitic meme. If so, please go to this other thread and say so,


To those who think religion is not dangerous, then, by all means, please share your opinion on what I am hoping is not going to be a one-sided argument as too many religious threads tend to be.

[Artois]

To those who are interested in this thread, I believe that there is another thread that is a logical spin-off from this:

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19557.new.html#new

I suspect that those who think religion is dangerous, will tend to think that religion is a parasitic meme. If so, please go to this other thread and say so,


To those who think religion is not dangerous, then, by all means, please share your opinion on what I am hoping is not going to be a one-sided argument as too many religious threads tend to be.

Stealing my posters, bad form old chap.

PS.  was there any religious reason ie. was it a Christian act to assassinate Bin Laden in front of his family?