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iampostal

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Re: Is belief in Relgion dangerous? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10126.msg124865#msg124865
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2010, 06:17:50 pm »
someone told me to try this test and it scared me....take the weekend newspaper...go to the international section and cut out every article that deals with religious violence/killing etc.....see how little newspaper you have left

Re: Is belief in Relgion dangerous? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10126.msg125158#msg125158
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2010, 11:36:25 pm »
I think the concept of religion is dangerous because it removes individual responsibility and replaces it with "the will of God".

During human history, people have done some horrible things in the name of religion, horrible things that they would have never done if there hadn't been a "higher power" telling them to do so. Current example is suicide bombers. You would never get these people to do these terrible acts if there weren't the promise of martyr's afterlife with a bunch of virgins.

I think someone said "evil people do evil things, but only religion makes good people do evil things.".
I've heard many similar sentiments, musings and conclusions before. They do seem to make a lot of sense.

And I believe this is because they are half-right. But if I may be so bold as to… perhaps not make a correction, but a modification.

As I mentioned earlier, I am in complete agreement with condemning fanaticism, particularly when, “faith replaces thought, rather than complements it.” Please forgive the vanity of quoting myself. I understand that is what Scaredgirl means when she says, “it removes individual responsibility and replaces it with "the will of God".”

This often happens with religions, as the zeal of pursuing something believed to be right and true leads the impressionable to be misled by those who seek to manipulate others for their own purposes. But this is not an inherent, intrinsic flaw contained within the concept of religion. There is no faith or creed which overtly states, “Please leave your brain at the door. Thinking will lead to expulsion from the flock.” Rather, this is what happens when you include humans in it.

Human are rotten. We really are. Why do you think we use the phrase, “It’s human nature”, when we describe something negative someone has done? We are, by and large, greedy, self-focussed creatures at heart. Sure, some are worse than others. Some are better. But we are all very, very fallible.

Another saying you may have heard is, “Absolute power corrupts absolutely.” That is, the more power you give to a fallible human, the more it will affect them adversely as their human nature is allowed to influence more people, reach greater heights - and depths – of achievement, and then fights tooth and nail to retain that power.

The common error to fall into, not just with religion, but with any institution we have, is to link the reprehensible behaviour of the humans in it to the institution itself. There have been some horrible things done in the name of religion, as Scaredgirl says, by some horrible people. There have also been horrible things done by lawyers in the name of the law, politicians in the name of politics, scientists in the name of science… Does it therefore mean that the field they were working in, or the cause they claimed to follow, was to blame? Or was it human nature?

If you examine some of these horrible things done in the name of religion, I think you will also find some very strong social and political factors at work as well, and a group of people fighting desperately and savagely to hold onto their power with by means necessary.

Religion is not so often the cause as it is the excuse.

airframe

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Re: Is belief in Relgion dangerous? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10126.msg125498#msg125498
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2010, 12:03:07 pm »
I'm not trying to be rude, it's just that some of the things people are casually discussing here are making me really, really uncomfortable. Try reading through some of the posts in this section, but switch out religious/christian/muslim/jewish (or whatever) for "atheist" and pretend they were talking about you. Do they still seem reasonable?
In short, yes. Religions don't need any special protection.

I just assumed you meant nazis because it fitted well what you were implying without actually saying it. Wouldn't be anything I haven't heard, same with communists. While I don't mind it and it's quite farfetched, it bugs that religions aren't as easily subjected to same critizism that atheism is.

Offline ratcharmer

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Re: Is belief in Relgion dangerous? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10126.msg125589#msg125589
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2010, 02:21:08 pm »
In short, yes. Religions don't need any special protection.

I just assumed you meant nazis because it fitted well what you were implying without actually saying it. Wouldn't be anything I haven't heard, same with communists. While I don't mind it and it's quite farfetched, it bugs that religions aren't as easily subjected to same critizism that atheism is.
I honestly have no idea where/how people are coming to the conclusion in the underlined section. This isn't part of some rhetoric or anything like that, I'm honestly baffled. Why do people feel like religions are somehow sheltered?

When I turn pick up a newspaper, go online, or use any sort of mass media I'm constantly bombarded with criticisms of my religion on a daily basis, and I can't really say as I've noted encountering any major criticisms of atheists anytime recently.

Is this merely a problem of perspective or what? Do we simply only notice the criticisms directed toward our own beliefs?

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I never meant religion should get special treatment, quite the opposite.

What I've been trying to point out is that this sort of "blame game" is dangerous.

Every single time in history when one group or another has stood up and declared "The problems in the world are all their fault" it has turned into something that later generations were ashamed of.

It does not matter who was the accuser and who was the accused. Every single time.

Artois

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Re: Is belief in Relgion dangerous? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10126.msg125860#msg125860
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2010, 08:43:05 pm »
When I turn pick up a newspaper, go online, or use any sort of mass media I'm constantly bombarded with criticisms of my religion on a daily basis, and I can't really say as I've noted encountering any major criticisms of atheists anytime recently.

Is this merely a problem of perspective or what? Do we simply only notice the criticisms directed toward our own beliefs?
I am quite suprised to hear this.  I am not aware of US (I assume) media behaving in this way, but rather as a non-US citizen I am aware of some of the extreme pro-christian media shown on Fox in particular (maybe this is shown outside the US to scare-monger and/or amuse us Europeans.)

In fairness, and in the interest of balance, I would like to know a little more about anti-christian bias in US media.

Offline ratcharmer

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Re: Is belief in Relgion dangerous? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10126.msg125889#msg125889
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2010, 09:28:04 pm »
I am quite suprised to hear this.  I am not aware of US (I assume) media behaving in this way, but rather as a non-US citizen I am aware of some of the extreme pro-christian media shown on Fox in particular (maybe this is shown outside the US to scare-monger and/or amuse us Europeans.)

In fairness, and in the interest of balance, I would like to know a little more about anti-christian bias in US media.
Underlined: is that a play on words off of "fair and balanced" (slogan for FOX news)?

FOX news is generally best noted as an exception rather than the rule as far as newscasting in the USA goes. FOX has a decidedly conservative bias whereas most news agencies are biased the other way. Yes I am saying all American media is biased one way or the other.

I think the best way I can explain the USA's pop culture/media stance on religion is by talking about the Catholic Church sex scandal. It's recent, was big news and it's made its way into pop culture.

Since the scandal broke in 2002 the news has been all over it. This is no surprise. What does surprise me is that when a US official publicly announced that in our public school system an estimated one in ten children is molested by a school official it was ignored by the media.

The other aspect is the pop culture aspect. It is generally considered "cool" the make fun of Christianity, even in malicious ways. Since the sex scandal broke I have not seen a single instance in which a Catholic official appeared in pop culture (TV, movies, etc) and there was not some form of pedophilia involved. The instance which I found least offensive was a detective show where the shocking surprise ending was when it turned out the priest character was not actually a pedophile.

In general, it's less a media bias as it is a bizarre cultural thing. We seem to have very elaborate unwritten rules about who it is and isn't okay to criticize publicly.

If you want to go into more detail about the sex scandal there's a thread for that:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,10091.0.html

Offline Boingo

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Re: Is belief in Relgion dangerous? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10126.msg126221#msg126221
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2010, 05:22:10 am »
I'm sure you've heard of that test-taking strategy about questions with ALWAYS and NEVER, right? 

So if the thread seriously asks whether "Is belief in religion ALWAYS dangerous?" then the answer, quite simply is NO.  But if it is more nuanced, perhaps, "In what circumstances, if any, is belief in religion dangerous?" then the discussion will be more meaningful, IMHO.
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Offline Daytripper

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Re: Is belief in Relgion dangerous? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10126.msg127100#msg127100
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2010, 09:54:36 am »
Boingo hit the nail on the head and quite easily.

I could go living my life thinking a whale is a fish, while others would argue it is a mammal. While you can say that is quite stupid, it does not harm me to think a whale is a fish, as long as I stay out of a biology class.

So, being a moderate religious person is not automatically a problematic thing. You can even live your life saying evolution is not real. It might raise some eyebrows but it isn't any different from saying a whale is a fish.

There are various problems that could arise if you're too strict... You can raise your children to be narrow minded or traumatize them with hell, but again that depends on you and it doesn't have to happen.

So as long as your views are moderate it is ok. The same goes for atheists really. I think the risks for atheists is a bit smaller. They're less organized and they have less to fight for. You never hear of any atheist suicide bombings.  :P
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Re: Is belief in Relgion dangerous? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10126.msg128836#msg128836
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2010, 11:39:02 pm »
I have posted this quote elsewhere – under the “Quotes” discussion, in fact – but I find it could almost be placed somewhere in every discussion in this section.

Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important. - C. S. Lewis

I think one could easily replace the “Christianity” in the quote with whatever faith you like. Including atheism. The nub of it is simply that the question of faith is the most important question you can ever ask yourself, because it determines, whatever the answer may be, the meaning of life, and subsequently should dictate your actions on this earth.

Usually, the view that “religion is fine in moderation” comes from people that do not hold to any particular religion. I’m not arguing with their agnosticism or atheism, but what they really seem to be saying is, “I don’t have any of that stuff and I don’t want it, so please keep it to yourself.” Arguing about the level of religion a person should have, when the result will not apply to you, is like a politician discussing a tax bracket which won’t apply to them, and decreeing, “that’s fair and reasonable.”

It may be… then again, it may not be.

Offline Daytripper

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Re: Is belief in Relgion dangerous? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10126.msg129159#msg129159
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2010, 03:19:40 pm »
Hmmm,

I don't think that always applies. Suppose I say alcohol is ok in moderation. A heavy drinker does not agree with me, and two years later he is in an AA meeting. So the people who agree with me were still right, even if they were discussing how much another person should drink.

Christians also say moderation is better mostly. I think almost no Christian agrees with religious suicide bombings. That is an extreme example. To make it easier, let's say enough Christians say believing in God and accepting evolution is fine. These Christians very much have the same attitude towards YECs and OECs as me.

I've seen Christians giving each other a hard time. For example, people do not agree with Catholics or with Calvinists or Jehovas.  The idea of pre determinism is not Christian in the eyes of these people. So Christians are all the time saying what other Christians should believe. I just say moderation is better. It's just something practical and not very specific. You will not hear me say it is not ok to be a Calvinist. So in the end I think I'm less difficult about it than most people.
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Re: Is belief in Relgion dangerous? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10126.msg129487#msg129487
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2010, 01:45:11 am »
I think I see the discrepancy here. Once again, Daytripper, you make a good point which makes a lot of sense. (Bravo, you.) But I think what you and I were talking about were two slightly different, although still related, things.

When I was referring to moderation, I meant the role it plays in a person’s life and psyche. Or else, how important is it. Very important, not important, or moderately important. The quote I posted relates to this, and how the question of religion – or, the meaning of life, if you prefer – is either the most important thing, or else not important at all.

Whereas it seems you were speaking of moderation in one’s views, as opposed to extremism or fanaticism. In this, I couldn’t agree more. Interestingly, CS Lewis, who I quoted on moderation, often writes about the importance of balance, and that it is in our human natures to fly to the opposite extreme whenever we dislike something, causing just as much damage up the other end. Your alcohol analogy referred to a moderation of view, and I believe that this is an area where a balanced approach is most correct, as apposed to vehement teetotalism or alcoholism. If you used alcohol as an example of the way I was speaking about moderation, the question would become, how important is alcohol in your life?

And where you refer to the denominations or sects within a faith going to town on one another, that is a classic example of the pitfalls of faith. When, if I may use an old saying, “you put the cart before the horse.” When the system becomes more important than the ideal it was created to serve. The Watergate scandal is an example of a group of people who had lost sight of the ideal behind political leadership – that of service to the people – in the quest to retain that leadership. And sadly, sectarian conflict is one of the biggest turnoffs about any religion. Look at the dog’s breakfast which was post-war Iraq, which continues to this very day. It is not fuelled by Islam, as much as it is by destructive sects within Islam.

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Re: Is belief in Relgion dangerous? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10126.msg131442#msg131442
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2010, 11:42:43 pm »
I think we mean different things by "moderation." What I consider moderate religions (or moderate sects/denominations of a religion) have experienced wars and strife in the name of religion when they were extreme in their demands that everyone worship as they do. Their moderation comes from a recognition of the horrors of war and the benefits of religious toleration. As much as they might wish others to believe as they do, they realize that it is better to live and let live. Unfortunately, some sects/denominations either never had that institutional memory of religious strife or have lost it. Conflict has an energizing effect on members, so the moderate sects are dying by attrition while the extreme sects are growing.

 

anything
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