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Offline Boingo

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Re: IQ vs. Religiosity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5834.msg61209#msg61209
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2010, 02:44:10 pm »
What I'm trying to say is that sure there's a possibility that Nobel prize winners are playing Elements and posting on this forum. Anything is possible.
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Offline Jangoo

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Re: IQ vs. Religiosity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5834.msg61225#msg61225
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2010, 03:40:33 pm »

Hmyeah Scaredgirl. I know of course what you mean.

I would even go as far as saying that making much more of oneself than one actually is, is regular behavior in online culture or in other words: People tend to know just about everything about almost anything at hand and often claim either quite dubious sources for their supposed knowledge or none at all.
On the other hand, this thread was created to ask the board-users about their opinions in the first place so what's it gonna be, having everybody just accept certain "facts" that were presented by "real" scientists, sort out those who are "real" scientists too and let them speak, not have anybody talk at all ... ?

Personally, I have a german masters-degree in social science and spent quite some time talking with people from various branches of the academic way on what they do and how they go about it. If I wanted, I could go for a doctorate now and be part of a research group that eventually presents it's findings in one way or another, hell I even have already published a couple articles.
I still don't feel like some sort of source for an ultimate and undoubtable knowledge and neither do the professors I worked with. When I say that real scientists cook with water too, I mean to say that this is really just a job like any other:
Scientists fail, scientists revise others and themselves, scientists are under pressure to come up with something presentable, if under contract by a certain agency even something "useful", scientist work disciplinary and thus can only present a small cut of the bigger picture whatever issue they are working on. Lastly scientists are also highly biased. The credo of "objectivity" has long been discarded for many real scientists since in the end every finding is really a matter of how and why you present it.

The study at hand is an excellent example for this. I don't really know anything about it's background but (not even knowing much about statistics) I already wondered about how they drew that line of best fit straight through all those dots. Also, I assumed the study would claim (and "prove") that religious people are less intelligent ... Along comes acelink, who also seems to know something about this stuff, presents a couple graphics that make the findings look totally different to me and points out just a few differences in wording that make the whole study express something much less definite.

Western science is a very useful tool but it has somehow taken the place of religion for many out there: Scientists are the high-priests of the cult, their studies are seen to reflect a higher truth and meaning, the common man is to freeze in awe and direct his whole life according to the commandments. As a knowledge-regime the scientific worldview has also come to discredit paralleling interpretations of the world and effectively functions as a dogma in many cases.

But scientists are not highpriests with an entitlement to higher truth ... really, they are just people like you and me that can make (in the truest sense of the phrase) an educated guess.
The very basis of the scientific method - the experiment - shows that pretty clearly: A bunch of try and error guesses that (hopefully) eventually result in some kind of case.


acelink

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Re: IQ vs. Religiosity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5834.msg61300#msg61300
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2010, 07:03:39 pm »
I have a tendency to be skeptical of everything, no matter who says it.

Reasoning: 
People have multiple enticements.   People generally pick the path that is best for them.
-Example:  You go to a doctors office and the doctor prescribes a treatment/drug that he's been endorsed by although you do not need it.
-Example:  You go to a mechanic for a tune up.  Mechanic says you have an engine problem but you really don't.  He wants money.

People often do not know what they are doing in any particular situation.  Plug and chug doesn't work well...
-Example:  A lot of statisticians just plug and chug without realizing what they are doing.  They don't know wtf they are doing and do things you cannot do.

Okay to ComputeNominalOrdinalIntervalRatio
Frequency DistributionYesYesYesYes
Median & PercentilesNoYesYesYes
Add or SubtractNoNoYesYes
Mean & Standard DeviationNoNoYesYes
RatioNoNoNoYes
It is easy to mess up statistics, graphs and so on.


I am more likely to trust their data if they thoroughly explain their point and back it up with data.  Raw data should be available.

Scientists, doctors etc are just people.  They could plug&chug their way through school remembering what they need to pass the test.  You using webMD (in a smart fashion) is no different than getting one of those doctors.

Scaredgirl

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Re: IQ vs. Religiosity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5834.msg61332#msg61332
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2010, 08:37:58 pm »
I would even go as far as saying that making much more of oneself than one actually is, is regular behavior in online culture or in other words: People tend to know just about everything about almost anything at hand and often claim either quite dubious sources for their supposed knowledge or none at all.
On the other hand, this thread was created to ask the board-users about their opinions in the first place so what's it gonna be, having everybody just accept certain "facts" that were presented by "real" scientists, sort out those who are "real" scientists too and let them speak, not have anybody talk at all ... ?
What the study shows are facts. How your interpret them is another thing.

We can divide countries roughly into two groups:

Group A
- poverty, less food, low GNP
- less education, low IQ

Group B
- rich, plenty of food, high GNP
- high education, high IQ


Countries that belong to group A are much more religious than countries that belong to group B. It's basically, the poorer and less educated you are, the more likely it is that you are religious. That is a statistical fact.

USA is actually an anomaly because it's clearly group B, yet scores high on religiosity. No other group B country does that, but there are easily identifiable historic reasons why religion is so strong in the US.

I personally see religion is as a way to cope in very difficult situations. Just look at prisons. How many inmates become religious when they get put into that desperate and horrible environment? Same thing with war. Previously non-religious people start praying when the bombs drop.

When nothing natural can help us, humans go for supernatural.

acelink

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Re: IQ vs. Religiosity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5834.msg61344#msg61344
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2010, 09:06:25 pm »
I agree with your theory SG.  But I don't agree with your statement of causation/implication of IQ and how many people are very religious.  There is definitely a correlation but the data itself is not able to support those suggestions of causation/implication.  In general, data will never explain causation.  The data itself is able to implicate things but will never explain entirely WHY something is happening.

I really wish I could find all of the data for the religious survey.  I'm interested in what the other groups have.  (Religion is somewhat important, not very important, not important at all).

xpanterx

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Re: IQ vs. Religiosity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5834.msg61348#msg61348
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2010, 09:17:12 pm »
All races worship a god no matter where they are on this planet, even before the white man came, coincidence?

acelink

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Re: IQ vs. Religiosity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5834.msg61356#msg61356
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2010, 09:25:45 pm »
All races worship a god no matter where they are on this planet, even before the white man came, coincidence?
I think your statement is a little too vague.

Most religions believe in an omnipotent being, a being with unlimited power  (god).  I would love to ask the very religious people in the survey if they believe in an omnipotent being.

Jaxly

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Re: IQ vs. Religiosity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5834.msg61379#msg61379
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2010, 10:16:32 pm »
I'd definitely think the two factors are indirectly related rather than being directly related. Scaredgirl made a point above that it is the economic status of countries that act as a "bridge" between the two. Completely agree with that. When aspects of life of this magnitude are examined there's just no way you're going to be able to isolate two specific factors. It'd be like trying to get a thread on a web to move in conjunction with one on the far side, without ever affecting the lines between. Really excellent posts from everyone involved here, enjoyed reading it.

Personally, I think religion is great for elderly people. It's something to look forward to and participate as a group in, with almost definite acceptance. Knowing every prayer that is said in church would probably give somone a similar satisfaction to knowing every answer in class. It could be seen as mentally stimulating. Basically I think its more to do with the social factor than a spiritual factor, and I think it's this form of religion that  intelligent America is involved in.

Chinook

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Re: IQ vs. Religiosity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5834.msg62858#msg62858
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2010, 07:21:00 pm »

Lets say you get sick. Do you trust a doctor, or some random forum guy?
False dilemma.
I don't have to decide that I will always listen to a doctor, I'm free to listen to each and decide that the doctor has presented the best case in each instance. 
I expect that in the vast majority of the cases, the doctor is who I will most likely choose to trust, but I will not blindly follow him simply because he is a doctor.  Doctors can make mistakes or even disagree with each other.

If I feel a doctor or a scientist or a lawyer or any professional has made an error, I won't hesitate to call them on it because of their status.

bstar11

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Re: IQ vs. Religiosity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5834.msg63023#msg63023
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2010, 11:27:53 pm »
First off I think this graph could be very easily skewed to one side or the other. It would be nearly impossible to do a unbiased showing of religiosity Vs. IQ
Second, what does IQ actually measure (This is a question)? From what I know about it, it only measures certain aspects, or subject. That's another easy way to vastly skew this.
Third, I'm extremely religious in the sense of I try to put my life the way it should be lived according to the Christian faith, and I'm planning (not really planning, but know) that I'm going to be a environmental/animal rights lobbyist.

If you don't know becoming a lobbyist requires one to be extremely involved in the high-end "elite" politics.
My IQ is off of the charts, especially for my age. I'm battling it out with my friend for 1 and 2 in my class, have all advanced classes. I read college level books by about 5 or 6 grade. And several academic accomplishments that almost no one can claim.

This was is no way to brag, but to just show that just because one devotes their life to the Christian faith, DOES NOT mean they can be considered hampered in their IQ WHATSOEVER!

PuppyChow

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Re: IQ vs. Religiosity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5834.msg63045#msg63045
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2010, 12:34:05 am »
I find this survey pretty funny.

Notice that man of the "poorer" third world countries are more religious. Ghana, Indonesia, Ivory Coast, Philipines, Honduras, Brazil, Uganda... These countries also have some of the lowset average IQs according to that data. Maybe the people in poorer countries are more religious because they need to reach out to *something* for help and they're poor because they have low IQs.

So the question is:
Does the low IQ lead to poverty lead to religion? Or does low IQ lead to religion?

Another way to look at it is from a historical perspective.

In highly religious places, I'll use the Philipines, you can look at it from a historical perspective. The Philipines are religious mostly because of sufi muslim merchants spreading Islam around southeast Asia and the islands back in the 11th - 15th or so centuries through trades. Buddhist pilgrims also had an effect. And Pakistan is cool because it's religious since the people BROKE OFF from India FOR religious reasons. That's why they're religious. In contrast, Bulgaria is an area that was influenced by Russia (I'm talking Peter the Great/Ivan the Terrible time, not Stalin time), where religion wasn't very influential. While the Christian Byzantine Empire was close by, it still had only a limited effect in the area of Bulgaria.

So is it really just historical context that makes these areas religious/not religious?

Basically, taking two separate quantities and putting them together and claiming they have a correlation doesn't really make sense. If I found a study proving that countries with lots of fast food places have a higher literacy rate, does that mean that having lots of fast food places results in a higher literacy rate? No. It means more developed countries have lots of fast food places because they're well developed and well developed countries just have high literacy rates.

Kurohami

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Re: IQ vs. Religiosity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5834.msg63048#msg63048
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2010, 01:01:04 am »
My English teacher told me religion is a way that human deals with their fear of the unknown. So, base on that, people who knows less would be more in need of this method to deal with unknown than more intelligent people who find answers to deal with the unknown. Just my opinion, I'm sure it's not brilliant.

 

blarg: