I still find it hard to believe the complexity of the universe to be mere chance

[Bloodshadow]

The obvious fail in the quantum theory argument is that it really cant be tested... if it is testable, then forgive me However, if it cant be tested, I thought it was unscientific. Or is it God that is just unscientific? Once again, ignore this if it actually can be tested.

The current Standard Model of physics, which incorporates quantum theory, has passed every test it has been given to. You think scientists will believe in this stuff without testing it? No offense, but they're not like some of the religious people.

[BluePriest]

The obvious fail in the quantum theory argument is that it really cant be tested... if it is testable, then forgive me However, if it cant be tested, I thought it was unscientific. Or is it God that is just unscientific? Once again, ignore this if it actually can be tested.

The current Standard Model of physics, which incorporates quantum theory, has passed every test it has been given to. You think scientists will believe in this stuff without testing it? No offense, but they're not like some of the religious people.

I was talking more of the edge of the universe thing more than anything. Thats more of bad wording on my part more than anything though. And honestly, yes, i believe there are a lot of "scientists" that are just scientists because they are trying to become an intellectually fulfilled atheist, and will jump at any chance they get. No, I am not assuming you or daxx are, however, at the same time, I like double checking everything to make sure.

edit
and as I have obviously not studied quantum physics myself, I thought I made it clear that I honestly wasnt sure if there was evidence, or if it was just a guess at how the edge of the world is.

[Daxx]

i believe there are a lot of "scientists" that are just scientists because they are trying to become an intellectually fulfilled atheist, and will jump at any chance they get.

You know, every time you bring this up, I wonder if you have ever actually met a person who is like this.

Actually I'm sort of curious as to how many actual research scientists you know, and which field(s) if any.

[doublecross]

Can we please not switch to an ad Hominem argument?

[Daxx]

Can we please not switch to an ad Hominem argument?

It's a legitimate question. Perhaps offtopic, but legitimate nonetheless.

[QuantumT]

i believe there are a lot of "scientists" that are just scientists because they are trying to become an intellectually fulfilled atheist, and will jump at any chance they get.

You know, every time you bring this up, I wonder if you have ever actually met a person who is like this.

Actually I'm sort of curious as to how many actual research scientists you know, and which field(s) if any.

I will use myself as a counter example. I used to be Christian, but the more I studied science, the sillier religion seemed to me. So for me, science led to atheism, not the other way around.

[Bieber4Ever98]

Logic and reasoning made me an athiest. Science worked out as a supportive tool for this.

             
                A boy says " Timmy is really big. "
                We asked the boy " Who is Timmy ? ".
                The boy replied, " Timmy is my big brother. "


The question is " Is Timmy really big ? ". The answer is yes for the boy. The boy compares his own size to his big brother Timmy.
The question before us is " Is universe highly complicated ? ". The answer is yes for the humans. He compares his own intelligence to the working of the universe.

The truth is that the universe is very simple. But the human's limited intelligence and knowledge makes the universe seem overly complicated which leads to the belief within himself that there is a need for a highly intelligent being to exist inorder to create and maintain this universe.

[Jangoo]

Why would the complexity of the universe not be mere chance?

It is infinite -> infinite chances for complexity!  Easy as that.

[Yosu Gemu]

agreed to op 

[killybob]

Logic and reasoning made me an athiest. Science worked out as a supportive tool for this.

             
                A boy says " Timmy is really big. "
                We asked the boy " Who is Timmy ? ".
                The boy replied, " Timmy is my big brother. "


The question is " Is Timmy really big ? ". The answer is yes for the boy. The boy compares his own size to his big brother Timmy.
The question before us is " Is universe highly complicated ? ". The answer is yes for the humans. He compares his own intelligence to the working of the universe.

The truth is that the universe is very simple. But the human's limited intelligence and knowledge makes the universe seem overly complicated which leads to the belief within himself that there is a need for a highly intelligent being to exist inorder to create and maintain this universe.

this is in fact an excellent way of putting things. my one point of correction would be to say that actually the universe is not overtly simple - that's why it has taken billions of years for everything to happen up to this point. but yes the universe is a lot simpler than we view it. sometimes though it just takes someone with a different way of looking at things to see it.

[doublecross]

Thing is, we have actually seen 'mere chance' begin to generate immense complexity.

For instance, we simulated a primordial soup, in conjunction with lightning strikes, and found that several amino acids formed.

Also, we have witnessed evolution happen in real time with bacteria, and also have seen that robots can quickly evolve complex traits such as altruistic behaviour, in an environment that simulates the way animals deal with nature.

http://nanopatentsandinnovations.blogspot.com/2011/05/robotic-altruism-aids-swarming-robot.html (http://nanopatentsandinnovations.blogspot.com/2011/05/robotic-altruism-aids-swarming-robot.html)

[BluePriest]

I believe this will be my final time commenting in an evolution thread. Here is what I have to say. We will all look at the world, and take what we want from it. Many times, our past determines what we will see from any given piece of evidence. We will justify in our minds whatever we want, consider any gaps non existent and ultimately resort to a childish point of view.