I still find it hard to believe the complexity of the universe to be mere chance

[killybob]

i don't think tran was trying to prove a point at all. he was merely informing everyone of his views and leaving them open for discussion and speculation.

not a quantum physicist (yet)

i do believe that the general term "scientist" or more specifically "physicist" is given to an individual whom is knowledgeable and active in the field. this, i believe, gives you the title physicist. if not then giiven the title of "our very own elements physicist"

[Bloodshadow]

i do believe that the general term "scientist" or more specifically "physicist" is given to an individual whom is knowledgeable and active in the field. this, i believe, gives you the title physicist. if not then giiven the title of "our very own elements physicist"

I'm neither knowledgeable nor active in physics compared to people like Stephen Hawking; I'm just an almost-18 high school student. I hope to be one in the future, but that's beside the point.

i don't think tran was trying to prove a point at all. he was merely informing everyone of his views and leaving them open for discussion and speculation.

I apologize. I am rather irritable these days.

[BluePriest]

Bolded  makes no sense.

If you can't understand what I posted, then I can't help you.

What If I told you I was getting bigger, but while getting bigger, I take up the same amount of space? Thats almost exactly what you said the universe is doing.  I dont think it was that he didnt understand what you said, I think it was that what you said just doesnt make sense. Its like saying I made first place in a race. I was the second contestant to cross the finish line.

[Bloodshadow]

Okay. If you have watched Doctor Who before, you'd know what I'm talking about. On the outside the TARDIS looks like a phone box, but the inside is huge. Now imagine that the Doctor upgrades his TARDIS so that the inside volume becomes even bigger. Then the TARDIS gets stuck in the Void, so that anything on the outside is no longer existent. There, you have a miniature expandable universe.

[OldTrees]

Okay. If you have watched Doctor Who before, you'd know what I'm talking about. On the outside the TARDIS looks like a phone box, but the inside is huge. Now imagine that the Doctor upgrades his TARDIS so that the inside volume becomes even bigger. Then the TARDIS gets stuck in the Void, so that anything on the outside is no longer existent. There, you have a miniature expandable universe.

Try Hard Sci Fi not soft sci fi.

There was a video linked earlier that explained how the expansion worked. It is expansion of where the matter is not where the space is and it is caused by the gravitational force exerted by empty space.

[Daxx]

What If I told you I was getting bigger, but while getting bigger, I take up the same amount of space? Thats almost exactly what you said the universe is doing.  I dont think it was that he didnt understand what you said, I think it was that what you said just doesnt make sense.

It makes perfect sense to me.

Wrapping your head around the concept that spacetime doesn't need to be expanding into anything in order to expand isn't really all that difficult.

This is essentially the exact problem you run into when trying to make the first cause argument for God. You're essentially still trying to think within the confines of spacetime - that is, you're trying to talk about a time before spacetime itself existed, which makes no sense. Similarly, speaking of space outside of spacetime makes no sense.

[Bloodshadow]

You're essentially still trying to think within the confines of spacetime - that is, you're trying to talk about a time before spacetime itself existed, which makes no sense. Similarly, speaking of space outside of spacetime makes no sense.

Glad to see that at least someone gets it. Quantum theory pretty much defies intuition and common sense, so the typical counterarguments wouldn't work well against it.

[doublecross]

You know, the concepts behind evolution are, by no means limited to Genetic Replicators (genes).


Anything that can in any way affect the probability of more of them existing in the future is subject to the same evolutionary forces.


If there is a pattern that people tend to find aesthetically pleasing, then it is more likely to be imitated.

Ideas can spread and evolve.

I believe that Religion is one of the best examples of a meme (evolving idea) that I can think of.


Much of the complexity of the universe comes from two thing.

The first is what I just explained: essentially evolutionary pressures shaping (if not as the only factor, as a major one at lease) virtually everything.

There are an infinite number of internally consistent sets of laws of physics. There is a limited number of simple ones, so statistically, a very complex system will exist in any given universe. The laws of physics are astoundingly complex, but all this complexity, coupled with its massive size, and extremely massive amount of time that all the different forces and pressures have had, extreme complexity is bound to emerge.

[BluePriest]

The obvious fail in the quantum theory argument is that it really cant be tested... if it is testable, then forgive me However, if it cant be tested, I thought it was unscientific. Or is it God that is just unscientific? Once again, ignore this if it actually can be tested.

[killybob]

God is unscientific. that's almost the whole point in him. he is sort of an explanation for anything science (in this and the past ages) cannot explain. i hope some day all things we've been discussing about science will become testable. for the mean time i can say that what we've mentioned about the expanding universe is right in front of our eyes (literally, in view of all our orbital telescopes and sensors) and has been observed. this is enough evidence for me at least.

[Daxx]

The obvious fail in the quantum theory argument is that it really cant be tested... if it is testable, then forgive me However, if it cant be tested, I thought it was unscientific. Or is it God that is just unscientific? Once again, ignore this if it actually can be tested.

It can be tested. It explains quite a lot of the data that einsteinian physics can't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics#Applications

[killybob]

yes. indeed the very purpose of the quantum theory is to explain quantitative phenomenon in the subatomic region. quantum mechanics is the study and the means of testing. everything in quantum mechanics can be tested.