I still find it hard to believe the complexity of the universe to be mere chance

[Mark_Tran]

Disclaimer:  I believe in a higher being but I also understand and accept science.

http://www.dump.com/2011/01/13/spiders-build-a-cobweb-in-timelapse-speed-and-catch-prey-in-slow-motion-video/

[QuantumT]

Just to clarify, the forces that drive evolution aren't "mere chance". Let me illustrate this with an example.

Let's say you have two animals. One is genetically predisposed to jump off cliffs and the other is genetically predisposed to not jump off cliffs. It isn't by mere chance that the one with the genes to not jump off cliffs survives to pass on its genes.

[Mark_Tran]

Just to clarify, the forces that drive evolution aren't "mere chance". Let me illustrate this with an example.

Let's say you have two animals. One is genetically predisposed to jump off cliffs and the other is genetically predisposed to not jump off cliffs. It isn't by mere chance that the one with the genes to not jump off cliffs survives to pass on its genes.

I used the wrong word.  I meant coincidence.

[QuantumT]

Coincidence isn't a good word either. The point is that it isn't just a coincidence that one species survives and another doesn't.

Look at it in terms of the spiders in your video. The ones that are capable of building effective webs survive and reproduce, and the ones that can't build effective webs die out.

[Mark_Tran]

Coincidence isn't a good word either. The point is that it isn't just a coincidence that one species survives and another doesn't.

Look at it in terms of the spiders in your video. The ones that are capable of building effective webs survive and reproduce, and the ones that can't build effective webs die out.

I guess I can't sum it up to one word then.  But the point I'm trying to get across is that the vast complexity of the universe all falling into place just doesn't seem in the least bit probable.  The fact is, we've figured out so much through science and yet we've only just brushed the surface of understanding.  Take the human brain for example;  we know so much about it and yet if you knew anything, you would know that we in fact know relatively little about it.  We can not form a solid base for the evolution of the human brain when we barely even know how it works.  And yet somehow, it does work.  And it works in ways that are just mind bogglingly improbable.  I just can't see how you can chalk it all up to evolution(although I do believe the theory of evolution).  Am I making any sense?

[QuantumT]

I guess I can't sum it up to one word then.  But the point I'm trying to get across is that the vast complexity of the universe all falling into place just doesn't seem in the least bit probable.

My point the whole time has been that it didn't just fall into place. There were huge evolutionary pressures placed on things to work and billions of years for these pressures to act over. It's not something that just sprung up over night, it was billions of years in the making.

The fact is, we've figured out so much through science and yet we've only just brushed the surface of understanding.  Take the human brain for example;  we know so much about it and yet if you knew anything, you would know that we in fact know relatively little about it.  We can not form a solid base for the evolution of the human brain when we barely even know how it works.  And yet somehow, it does work.  And it works in ways that are just mind bogglingly improbable.  I just can't see how you can chalk it all up to evolution(although I do believe the theory of evolution).  Am I making any sense?

Just because we don't fully understand how it works currently doesn't mean that it can't be understood. If I were to take magnets back to the 1700s and use them to make things levitate, the forces at work would be utterly incomprehensible to the people of that time, but that doesn't mean that they can't be understood, or even that they're particularly complicated. It just means that the people of the time don't understand them yet.

[Mark_Tran]

I never said that it can't be understood...

As for things falling into place:  The shift from animal to sentient thinking didn't happen over billions of years.  In fact, relative to the life of the universe, human sentience is fairly recent and happened in a fairly quick shift.  If you still believe that this is due to "evolutionary pressures" then so be it.  But I just don't see how something so conveniently perfect can come about by happenstance of probability.

[BluePriest]

It is chance. Simple as that. That chance may have some guidance based on its environments, but it still relies on chance. Not liking the word doesnt change what it is.

I believe his reference to how little we understand, is that it is quite suspicious that our human brains cant comprehend something that happened by mere chance after this much research.

[Mark_Tran]

I guess my follow up question would be (for you Mark_Tran)

Does your view of the "extraordinary" (or "complexity") of our universe , push your belief in a higher being?

That's right.

[QuantumT]

I never said that it can't be understood...

As for things falling into place:  The shift from animal to sentient thinking didn't happen over billions of years.  In fact, relative to the life of the universe, human sentience is fairly recent and happened in a fairly quick shift.  If you still believe that this is due to "evolutionary pressures" then so be it.  But I just don't see how something so conveniently perfect can come about by happenstance of probability.

The shift from "animal to sentient" is probably mostly do to the evolution of language. Language allowed humans to pass on knowledge in a way that no other animal could. It also allowed for the expression of much more complex ideas than would have otherwise been possible.

The reason I put "animal to sentient" in quotes is because I don't think I'd claim that humans are the only sentient beings. There are animals that have shown the ability to problem solve, and some have even shown the ability to learn language (sign language specifically).

I also don't think that I'd use the word perfect because it seems to imply that we have no further capability to evolve.

It is chance. Simple as that. That chance may have some guidance based on its environments, but it still relies on chance. Not liking the word doesnt change what it is.

It is chance sure. But the reason I don't like using that word is do to the fact that most people don't understand statistics very well either. When they hear the word chance, they immediately think of things like coin tosses and dice rolls, where the probabilities are relatively small, not things where the probability is ridiculously large (like the chance of me quantum tunneling to Jupiter when I jump into the air).

I believe his reference to how little we understand, is that it is quite suspicious that our human brains cant comprehend something that happened by mere chance after this much research.

You say that like there aren't advances continuously being made.

[Mark_Tran]

I think my opening post should have implied that I believe animals are very intelligent.

Anyway, I'm really interested in knowing if we will ever evolve from all the pressure of impending destruction of our entire planet or if we'll just be wiped out :O

The direction we're currently headed spells disaster and I don't see how we can avoid it without a worldwide paradigm shift.

Now I'm just completely off topic

[BluePriest]

My point stands as is. Compared to what the possibility of knowledge is, we have very little. Yes we are making advances, however, even with all the information we have, we are still (comparatively) stupid. Billions of people in the world should be able to make up for the "time before humans existed",