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Offline MasterofPun

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1250839#msg1250839
« Reply #156 on: November 06, 2016, 11:26:16 pm »
Human reasoning is a TARDIS?

I know WHO you are talking about there  ::)
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Offline Blacksmith

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1251653#msg1251653
« Reply #157 on: November 17, 2016, 05:56:46 pm »
Human reasoning is a TARDIS?
I think you have to explain what you refer to.
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Offline Ides Usher

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1251675#msg1251675
« Reply #158 on: November 18, 2016, 03:48:26 am »
Could you point out some errors in the Bible? I've heard lots of people reference these "errors" - but never seen one that I couldn't handle. And yes - I have gone to the internet and responded to rationalwiki articles. If you could find an error with the Bible I've never heard before, I'd be interested to hear it. Now, I should mention that it will not change my beliefs even if I can't explain it, but I may be able to help calm your fears of the Bible being untrue.
The Bible says that ALL of it is true. From Genesis's Creation account to the prophecies to come in revelation must be true for God to be who He says He is.

The Papyrus Ipuwer, located in St. Petersburg, contains an Egyptian account which is identical to the Exodus account except for a few small details and one major detail. It describes every event given in Exodus from the Egyptian view (accounting for ALL of the small details) in the same order, including a pursuit of escaping slaves which leads into the depths of the Red Sea that ends with the death of Pharaoh Mernepta when the parted waters crash down upon him and his troops. The major detail, the only significant variation (if you don't count the revelation that the pharaoh of the Exodus was Mernepta) in the two accounts, describes the tenth plague as an earthquake which shook the entire Earth. This has caused historians to dismiss the Papyrus Ipuwer as the Egyptian account of the Exodus.

The Upanishads and the Vedas each contain an account of the the end of the world through a progression of plagues, identical in nature and sequence to those described in the Papyrus Ipuwer and up until the final plague, the account  in Exodus. The final plague in the Hindu texts is in each case an earthquake to end all earthquakes.

End of the world accounts in the Popol Vuh, some Buddhist texts in Tibet and one of the oldest Norse stories of Jörmungandr and Ragnarok all describe an identical progression of plagues culminating in a massive earthquake.

At the time of the Exodus the Earth underwent a global cataclysm that was recorded by many ancient societies. No other explanation can reasonably account for the precise correlation between texts from such diverse sources. I would love to hear of another reasonable explanation that doesn't expect me to believe it is all a coincidence. Once or even twice could conceivably be considered coincidental, but there is just too much correlation for that. So why does the Hebrew account of these events differ from the others? The Hebrew description of the tenth plague is a single thirteen letter word which means roughly "All of the best and brightest". When translated into Greek it becomes roughly "those who inherit the bounty of the Earth". When THAT is translated into Latin you get "First born". This thirteen letter word has as its very center letter an "o" type letter which connects to the letters to either side at either the top or bottom. I don't remember which one, only that there are two "o" letters, one that loops up from the bottom and one that loops down from the top. When that word is spelled with that center letter looped one way it corresponds to the current Exodus text. Loop that center letter the other way and you get another meaning entirely. The other way, spelled identically to the current word except for the way that center letter is looped, means "truly epic earthquake".

There, then, is a mistake in the bible. Change one single letter and the Hebrew account of the cataclysm matches every other account of the cataclysm. This is the simplest explanation for the discrepancy.

Offline ElementalDearWatson

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1251687#msg1251687
« Reply #159 on: November 18, 2016, 12:00:44 pm »
Human reasoning is a TARDIS?
I think you have to explain what you refer to.

The TARDIS is a blue box.  It was a bad pun.

Offline ElementalDearWatson

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1251688#msg1251688
« Reply #160 on: November 18, 2016, 12:27:44 pm »
The Papyrus Ipuwer, located in St. Petersburg, contains an Egyptian account which is identical to the Exodus account except for a few small details and one major detail. It describes every event given in Exodus from the Egyptian view (accounting for ALL of the small details) in the same order, including a pursuit of escaping slaves which leads into the depths of the Red Sea that ends with the death of Pharaoh Mernepta when the parted waters crash down upon him and his troops. The major detail, the only significant variation (if you don't count the revelation that the pharaoh of the Exodus was Mernepta) in the two accounts, describes the tenth plague as an earthquake which shook the entire Earth. This has caused historians to dismiss the Papyrus Ipuwer as the Egyptian account of the Exodus.

None of that is quite true.  For a start, the main reason that it's dismissed as being corroborative to the story of Exodus is that the Papyrus was authored in around 1900 BCE, and describes events of around 2200 BCE, whereas Exodus was authored in around 6 BCE and describes events of somewhere around 1200-1400 BCE.

Quote
The Upanishads and the Vedas each contain an account of the the end of the world through a progression of plagues, identical in nature and sequence to those described in the Papyrus Ipuwer and up until the final plague, the account  in Exodus. The final plague in the Hindu texts is in each case an earthquake to end all earthquakes.

I can't find such accounts in either of those.  Can you link to a primary source, please?

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End of the world accounts in the Popol Vuh, some Buddhist texts in Tibet[...]

Again, can you quote a primary source to verify this, please?

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[...] and one of the oldest Norse stories of Jörmungandr and Ragnarok all describe an identical progression of plagues culminating in a massive earthquake.

Well, firstly, Ragnarok is describing future events, not past ones.  Secondly, your statement here is not true at all.  The first "plague" is three winters in a row.  The last are the giants destroying everything, Fenrir the wolf eating everything, and Surt the giant setting fire to everything with his sword, before the world sinks beneath the ocean waves and is then reborn.

Quote
No other explanation can reasonably account for the precise correlation between texts from such diverse sources. I would love to hear of another reasonable explanation that doesn't expect me to believe it is all a coincidence.

How about that you seem to be talking about a much closer correlation than actually exists (if at all), and that various mythologies influence each other and so the story of Exodus was influenced by the Egyptian mythology during the times when the two cultures were closely associated with each other?

Offline Ides Usher

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1252773#msg1252773
« Reply #161 on: December 04, 2016, 03:12:55 am »
1. You are using the accepted standard timeline for ancient Egypt. Just because it is the standard and is widely accepted does not make it any less wrong. On that timeline, Nectonebo I and Ramses II are pharaohs 800 years apart. The problem with this is that they were the same person, and when this is recognized then events fall into their proper and correct order. The Exodus and the Papyrus Ipuwer become contemporary with each other as do the other texts I mentioned. Because the accepted timelines of all of the surrounding areas are linked with the accepted Egyptian timeline they also contain numerous 800 year errors. I would have to write a book or three to cover all the things that change when it is realized that those two pharaohs were the same person and could not exist 800 years apart from each other.

2. My contact in Tibet is unable to return to India for political reasons (he did not elaborate, so I don't know whether it is the Chinese government or the Indian government that is obstructing) and so cannot establish the current status of the ancient Veda and Upanishad texts that he read 30 years ago, but confirmed that the two temples in Tibet still do not allow cameras and still do not have electricity, let alone internet access. The texts at those locations won't be online anytime soon. His translation of the Popol Vuh, which was never actually published due to political issues, was left at a library in Guatamala 25 years ago and is likewise not online.

3. The team of researchers who currently have access to the Norse text rejected my request for pictures of the text to post online. Though I found several versions of the story, none of them had enough in common with that older text to really even be the same story. Some things just get changed over time and that is one story that has been embellished and adjusted many many times. There was one that had a plague of frogs in it, but that is definitely not enough to make my case.

This has been very frustrating and has taken entirely too much time to get such disappointing results.

Offline ElementalDearWatson

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1253373#msg1253373
« Reply #162 on: December 14, 2016, 09:04:55 am »

 

blarg: