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Offline Bloodshadow

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1056196#msg1056196
« Reply #108 on: April 01, 2013, 07:59:08 pm »
I've stated the problems I find with your notion of "nature", destruct. Yet you totally ignored them. If you keep doing that, I'm not going to continue arguing with you anymore.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1056318#msg1056318
« Reply #109 on: April 02, 2013, 06:16:28 am »
@ OldTrees.  I am not using nature as either, all I am saying is that the nature is what it means to be that thing.  If that only requires characteristics, then it is only characteristics.  If it requires a goal, then it also encompasses goals.
Pardon the ancient greek
Then assuming you are using nature to mean platonic forms then it only encompasses characteristics. You are trying to claim that we can derive the virtue of an object from the form of the object. Example: The virtue of a knife is being sharp. Aristotle wrote some on this manner. Back then they believed that rain happened in order to water the plants. Scientists today have disproved virtue based cause and effect. Aka rain happens regardless about whether there are plants to water since the cause of rain is in the cloud not in the plants.

The rain example is yet another example of how our purpose seeking pattern matching brains are able to deceive us by creating a fallacious explanation of what we observe. Sometimes this fallacious explanation happens to be right (knives made by butchers are sharp in order to cut) however sometimes it is wrong (rain does not fall in order to water plants). We need to recognize that this mental process is internal to us and is not caused by nor correlates with the truth.
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Offline Heric the Dark Lord

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1056611#msg1056611
« Reply #110 on: April 03, 2013, 02:29:04 am »
Religion is one of those funny things. there's never a point people will stop arguing about theirs being correct.

Quote
@Heric

You tell us that you don't deny the truth of "Join us or suffer eternal torment."

Right after the end of that sentence, you say "The message the bible contains is that God loves you."

....
That's some odd love, I'll say.

Now, I'm no pastor. I'm no Bible Genius. But I know how to answer this, it's simple.

God's nature is loving, merciful, just, good. He would love to take everyone to Heaven, to His kingdom. But He is also a just God. After Adam and Eve commited the first sin, man was seperated from God, because God cannot allow sin. Knowing this, He provided a sacrifice for us; one who was born of God, so he hadn't inherited the Sin of Adam, but born as man, walking among them. He took the punishment that He had not earned, but we deserved, so that our sin could be forgiven so we could go to His kingdom. He provided Jesus Christ, who died on the cross, spilling his blood and suffering torment, going through death, so that He could save us. He forgives our sin, and God won't judge us for it, for our sin is forgiven. All it takes is to accept the sacrifice, that Jesus is our Messiah, our Savior.

If we don't, though, we can't enter God's perfect kingdom, for we have not been forgiven of our sin. After that, there is only one place to go in death, run by the one who wanted us to suffer this torment.

Think of it like this: You are a king, and you run your kingdom. Now, you are a loving king, and the people love you. But there are these people whom are breaking the law, refusing to accept your place in royalty, and doing nasty things to the law-abiding citizens. How would you think?

Probably a better example: say you have 7 children. 5 of them are good children. 2 of them, however, do nasty things, are ill-behaved, break the law, and don't even call you father/mother. You'd still love them, but you wouldn't put up with their behaviour, right? In the same way, God still loves us, but unless we accept our Savior, the one cleansing us of our sin, God can't put up with the nasty sin all over us, both inherited, and the stuff we've done.

And like I said, if we can't enter the kingdom of Heaven, there is only one place to go. It's a sad fate, indeed, and I could never wish that fate on anyone. Sadly, being an imperfect human, I often push people away from God, more than I bring them to Him.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 02:31:13 am by Heric the Dark Lord »
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Offline Bloodshadow

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1056657#msg1056657
« Reply #111 on: April 03, 2013, 07:19:09 am »
My opinion remains the same. No evidence, no belief.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1056732#msg1056732
« Reply #112 on: April 03, 2013, 05:00:42 pm »
God's nature is loving, merciful, just, good. He would love to take everyone to Heaven, to His kingdom. But He is also a just God. After Adam and Eve commited the first sin, man was seperated from God, because God cannot allow sin. Knowing this, He provided a sacrifice for us; one who was born of God, so he hadn't inherited the Sin of Adam, but born as man, walking among them. He took the punishment that He had not earned, but we deserved, so that our sin could be forgiven so we could go to His kingdom. He provided Jesus Christ, who died on the cross, spilling his blood and suffering torment, going through death, so that He could save us. He forgives our sin, and God won't judge us for it, for our sin is forgiven. All it takes is to accept the sacrifice, that Jesus is our Messiah, our Savior.

If we don't, though, we can't enter God's perfect kingdom, for we have not been forgiven of our sin. After that, there is only one place to go in death, run by the one who wanted us to suffer this torment.

Think of it like this: You are a king, and you run your kingdom. Now, you are a loving king, and the people love you. But there are these people whom are breaking the law, refusing to accept your place in royalty, and doing nasty things to the law-abiding citizens. How would you think?

Probably a better example: say you have 7 children. 5 of them are good children. 2 of them, however, do nasty things, are ill-behaved, break the law, and don't even call you father/mother. You'd still love them, but you wouldn't put up with their behaviour, right? In the same way, God still loves us, but unless we accept our Savior, the one cleansing us of our sin, God can't put up with the nasty sin all over us, both inherited, and the stuff we've done.

And like I said, if we can't enter the kingdom of Heaven, there is only one place to go. It's a sad fate, indeed, and I could never wish that fate on anyone. Sadly, being an imperfect human, I often push people away from God, more than I bring them to Him.

I understood.. none of your first paragraph. I do understand the story, but I don't understand the reasoning behind it and the way you placed it seemed poorly-worded. Develop, maybe? "He had not earned, but we deserved".. "To accept the sacrifice"

"For we have not been forgiven of our sin" -- So, if I followed correctly, because two hypothetical people sinned, I should accept and repent for something I haven't done to go to Heaven? Even if I live a just life (without sin), without accepting God's ideals or the bible story, I can't go to Heaven, even though I have never sinned?

King hypothesis : I'm a king. I'd place the ones misbehaving in prison or to exile. I would not force everyone to love me. You can hate me as your king as much as you want. Just don't destroy my peace in my kingdom, and we'll be fine. In the God example, you're literally locking everyone that does not love you outside of the kingdom. Maybe they don't believe in you, or they don't love you, but as long as they are behaving; why lock them away?

Parental example: They're breaking the law, so they'll most likely go to jail soon - If they don't, the chances of me myself placing them there is extremely high (Follow the law.). I would not place the Five Others away, even if they are ill-behaved or don't call me father. One thing is the law, another is ill-behaving; I can try to fix the ill-behaving for as long as I want. Also, considering the amount of mothers and fathers that DO put up with the horrible behavior of their children, I'm sure that would be an odd example. I, at least, was raised with the expectation of doing what is right (And by right, I don't mean the sin or morally correct, but at the very least, to speak my mind and defend what I would think is right, and respect, etc. etc.) and making it so I can fix my own troubles and problems (be they grades, fights, or the like). Considering the several other people that I know and see running to the parents for any and all troubles, terrible grades, drinking under-age, smoking/using drugs (under and over-age) and downright screaming at their fathers and mothers, I would not be surprised if I am an exception of not putting up with ill-behaving. In fact, many of the people I know are horribly blinded of their son's and daughter's misdoing, lost in the love they have for them.

"In the same way, God still loves us but unless we accept our Savior, the one cleansing us of our sin, God can't put up with the nasty sin all over us, both inherited, and the stuff we've done."

Why do I inherit sins? The sins are not mine, I did not commit these sins, I do not have any relation to the sins that were not commited by me. Why would I need to cleanse myself of something I have not done to enter His kingdom? If He is all loving, why is He holding mankind accountable for something they did not do themselves? (Inherited sins.) Adquired Sins (The ones you'd get through your life) are a completely different story, but the thought that you inherit sins; I, at least, find it odd, not to say a tad bit ridiculous. It's like having to pay for the car someone else broke.

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1057626#msg1057626
« Reply #113 on: April 06, 2013, 02:20:12 pm »


"For we have not been forgiven of our sin" -- So, if I followed correctly, because two hypothetical people sinned, I should accept and repent for something I haven't done to go to Heaven? Even if I live a just life (without sin), without accepting God's ideals or the bible story, I can't go to Heaven, even though I have never sinned?
For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We are not responsible for the sins of our fathers or forfathers, but we all have sinned. None of us are perfect.

King hypothesis : I'm a king. I'd place the ones misbehaving in prison or to exile. I would not force everyone to love me. You can hate me as your king as much as you want. Just don't destroy my peace in my kingdom, and we'll be fine. In the God example, you're literally locking everyone that does not love you outside of the kingdom. Maybe they don't believe in you, or they don't love you, but as long as they are behaving; why lock them away?
Behaving by whos standards? Yours? Or Gods? Even without the first 4 commandments which are spiritual, who do you know that has never lied? That has never hates (which God considers like murder), who has never lusted after a man/woman (which God considers adultery).


"In the same way, God still loves us but unless we accept our Savior, the one cleansing us of our sin, God can't put up with the nasty sin all over us, both inherited, and the stuff we've done."

Why do I inherit sins? The sins are not mine, I did not commit these sins, I do not have any relation to the sins that were not commited by me. Why would I need to cleanse myself of something I have not done to enter His kingdom? If He is all loving, why is He holding mankind accountable for something they did not do themselves? (Inherited sins.) Adquired Sins (The ones you'd get through your life) are a completely different story, but the thought that you inherit sins; I, at least, find it odd, not to say a tad bit ridiculous. It's like having to pay for the car someone else broke.

You dont inherit sins of your parents. This was stated incorrectly, and is a common misconception. You inherited the sinful nature.

Romans 5:12
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV)
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

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Offline sixers

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1067802#msg1067802
« Reply #114 on: May 07, 2013, 05:59:10 pm »
Just going to comment here that Catholic school really messed me up. As it should for any sane individual.

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1072108#msg1072108
« Reply #115 on: May 20, 2013, 03:51:14 am »
Just going to comment here that Catholic school really messed me up. As it should for any sane individual.

I think I was on adderall when I posted this.

Offline MasterofPun

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1236535#msg1236535
« Reply #116 on: July 01, 2016, 12:56:40 am »
I am tired of these people also. I cleave to the Bible though - God's Word in times of trouble.

I would also like you to answer a question: can God beat science? Can God define science? The God of the Bible sure can.
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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1236537#msg1236537
« Reply #117 on: July 01, 2016, 01:45:03 am »
I am tired of these people also

this is not the best way to start a necro post, rly, i can write the same in your religion thread but u ever see me in your thread about religion talking about atheism or agnosticism?

Offline ddevans96

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1236541#msg1236541
« Reply #118 on: July 01, 2016, 02:39:17 am »
I interpreted the first part of his post differently - MasterOfPun, please correct any or all of this if I'm wrong:

I understood him to be replying Arum's OP. 'I'm tired of these people' is referring to the forceful, the impolite, and the ignorant Christians - as Arum called them, 'overly religious zealots'. He holds this view despite being a Christian himself, recognizing the difference between those like himself (by my perception, he has been respectful and knowledgeable in discussions in this section) and the ones mentioned.
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Offline MasterofPun

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1236771#msg1236771
« Reply #119 on: July 03, 2016, 12:43:47 am »
I was responding to the OP's post - I should have made that clearer.
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