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Offline destruct

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1055795#msg1055795
« Reply #84 on: March 31, 2013, 03:32:27 pm »
Here is my argument for a universal set of morals:

Tell me if you agree with these statements:
Morality is about being a good person.
We become a good person through doing good actions.
So our will must choose to do that good action.
We know what is good through our intellect.
When something is good it perfects the basics of what makes us human. (that's the philosophical definition).
Basically, then, because we want only what is good for us, and that is founded in what it means to be human, there has to be a set of morals.

If our human nature changes,  morality changes, because morality for anything is based on what it means to be that thing.

It can't all just depend on convention because just like physically, there are certain things outside of what we think about them, are good and bad for us to eat.  Eating a bowling ball is bad for me, no matter what I think about it.  Same thing with morality.

For the screwdriver example, if that isn't your definition of screwdriver, what makes a screwdriver a screwdriver?
And anyways, according to your argument, since the majority of society decides that murder is wrong, and they should be right, according to your argument shouldn't I be right in saying that the definition of a screwdriver is something that screws screws because the majority of society believes it therefore it should be true?

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1055801#msg1055801
« Reply #85 on: March 31, 2013, 03:56:50 pm »
Here is my argument for a universal set of morals:

Tell me if you agree with these statements:
Morality is about being a good person.
Disagreed. Read the next quote.
Also: Morality=/=Good actions. Both due to the conflict of what is Good for who, and also due to doing what is correct =/= good. If you do something that is good for you but would be "immoral" to the rest, there's a contradiction right there.

We become a good person through doing good actions.
1) Disagreed
2) Define good.
I just killed a man because he was annoying me to hell. To -me-, it was a good action. Am I a good person now?
Good is relative and every person has a temporary "good" that they follow through at the time. It's good for you, not good for others. Good for others, not good for you. Which one of the goods do I follow to be a good person..?

So our will must choose to do that good action.
We know what is good through our intellect.
People don't have the same intellect, therefore people have different meanings of good.

When something is good it perfects the basics of what makes us human. (that's the philosophical definition).
Basically, then, because we want only what is good for us, and that is founded in what it means to be human, there has to be a set of morals.
Define "Us". Me and myself, or the humanity as a whole? There are times where what is moral, what is correct, does not equal to what everyone else would consider to be good.
Example: You're back in highschool, a very popular guy/girl and his gang just made some big mess and the principal is in front of the class asking who did it. You have the option to turn them in or stay quiet. You know that turning them in is correct, morally permissible, but it is not good for them. It may also not be good for you, being ridiculized and chased due to that in the near future after you do so.

If our human nature changes,  morality changes, because morality for anything is based on what it means to be that thing.

It can't all just depend on convention because just like physically, there are certain things outside of what we think about them, are good and bad for us to eat.  Eating a bowling ball is bad for me, no matter what I think about it.  Same thing with morality.

For the screwdriver example, if that isn't your definition of screwdriver, what makes a screwdriver a screwdriver?
And anyways, according to your argument, since the majority of society decides that murder is wrong, and they should be right, according to your argument shouldn't I be right in saying that the definition of a screwdriver is something that screws screws because the majority of society believes it therefore it should be true?

Murder is a much bigger thing than the screwdriver. And then again, as I have said, it doesn't matter what you think or what I think about the screwdriver or murder. We have our definitions, they have theirs, and if your definition goes against most other definitions, that's alright.
The fact is that while both you and I can convince someone else that the screwdriver/murder is doing what we want and following it's nature, I am not punished by the rest of the community by saying that my screwdriver does not need to screw screws. Sure, the majority of the society believes it, therefore it's true for them. In my opinion, it is not true for what the screwdriver is doing right now. And, hey, it can be that when the need arises I agree with the society as well. You, on the other hand, will get punished by the community for said murder. But on the same idea, there might reach a point where you murdering someone else is accepted by the society, although frowned upon nonetheless. (Absolute/legitimate defence or whatever the name could possibly be in English.)

Offline destruct

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1055806#msg1055806
« Reply #86 on: March 31, 2013, 04:17:11 pm »
Good is the perfection of somethings nature.  Therefore, because all humans share in the same common nature, unique to humans and not shared by animals, morality is outside my thoughts about it.  Just because I think something is good does not mean it is good.  Good for me requires it to perfect my nature, and if it is immoral to the rest of the people it is not good for me.

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1055807#msg1055807
« Reply #87 on: March 31, 2013, 04:19:10 pm »
Good is the perfection of somethings nature.  Therefore, because all humans share in the same common nature, unique to humans and not shared by animals, morality is outside my thoughts about it.  Just because I think something is good does not mean it is good.  Good for me requires it to perfect my nature, and if it is immoral to the rest of the people it is not good for me.

What is the nature of the humans and who says that humans share the same common nature?

Please develop, give proof, or at least try to lead an argument that leads to that conclusion. One thing is to say it and back it up through logical means, another is to just say it and call it that. You're really just placing out these things without even a decent logical explanation behind them. And I have already said -- and gave an example! -- that what is immoral to the rest of the people may be good for you, and the same is true in reverse.

Offline Heric the Dark Lord

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1055822#msg1055822
« Reply #88 on: March 31, 2013, 05:45:30 pm »
((Forgive me, I only read the first page, so the stuff I'm talking about is old, probably talked about already, and I may be missing stuff. I just had a mini-rage at something the poster said.))

Quote
No. It is not because of the youtube trolls, but because it's been happening too long. BE CHRISTIAN BE CHRISTIAN BECHRISTIAN is all the bible says, and frankly, I've just had enough that I up and went atheist.

That's not what the Bible says. There are crazy Christians, I'll say, just as there are crazy Atheists. The Bible has stories, testimonies, truths, morals, and much more. but for those that missed it, the main message is not "BE CHRISTIAN BE CHRISTIAN BE CHRISTIAN". It is not "Join us or suffer eternal torment"(Though, I do not deny the truth in that.).  The message the Bible contains is that God loves you. He wants to see you in His kingdom. It's about our worth to Him, which is so much that He sent His Son to die a brutal death, so we may one day be with Him.(Would you do so with your own son? Imagine how He felt about us, than.) He loves us with a love that can NEVER be changed. No matter how many times you sin, He'll welcome you in open arms. Even if you stop believing in Him, like you say you do, He loves you. He wants you to come to Him, and be able to experience eternal life.

I'm not trying to be a Crazy Zealot, and I'm not the one to talk to about this; I still have so much to face for myself. But I have the feeling you still believe in Him. (To explain, you probably don't want to admit it, even to yourself, cause you're running from Him.) Please, if you want to make such a decision, I can't stop you. But think first. The fact you made a topic here says to me that you want somebody-or something- to help you keep your faith in a God you're starting to stop believing in.
Of every method I've tried, only one way to make someone obey you has worked. Set a man on fire, and he will burn for you the rest of his life.

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1055827#msg1055827
« Reply #89 on: March 31, 2013, 05:59:36 pm »
@Heric

You tell us that you don't deny the truth of "Join us or suffer eternal torment."

Right after the end of that sentence, you say "The message the bible contains is that God loves you."

....
That's some odd love, I'll say.

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1055834#msg1055834
« Reply #90 on: March 31, 2013, 06:21:04 pm »
Good is the perfection of somethings nature.  Therefore, because all humans share in the same common nature, unique to humans and not shared by animals, morality is outside my thoughts about it.  Just because I think something is good does not mean it is good.  Good for me requires it to perfect my nature, and if it is immoral to the rest of the people it is not good for me.

What is the nature of the humans and who says that humans share the same common nature?

Please develop, give proof, or at least try to lead an argument that leads to that conclusion. One thing is to say it and back it up through logical means, another is to just say it and call it that. You're really just placing out these things without even a decent logical explanation behind them. And I have already said -- and gave an example! -- that what is immoral to the rest of the people may be good for you, and the same is true in reverse.

Sorry.  Here is what I am trying to say.  What is the thing(s) that you say makes humans humans?  If there is a defining characteristic that makes us human, everyone has to share that characteristic to be human.  Those parts the nature of a human being.
Again, I am defining good by the classical definition in philosophy:  the perfection of a thing's nature.  So therefore, acts are only good if they perfect our nature, and don't violate it.  I think you are using a different definition of good.
My definition of a human is a temporal being created in the image and likeness of God with an intellect and a will.  But you are probably going to debate this with me.  This doesn't really matter here, but do you now agree that humans have a common nature?
I'm not sure what is confusing about this, but if you could tell me that would help.

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1055837#msg1055837
« Reply #91 on: March 31, 2013, 06:29:25 pm »
Quote
Sorry.  Here is what I am trying to say.  What is the thing(s) that you say makes humans humans?  If there is a defining characteristic that makes us human, everyone has to share that characteristic to be human.  Those parts the nature of a human being.

Not so long ago, we had this talk. The defining characteristic is different for each person. So there is no "If", because that would require an universal agreement in the sense of what defines what makes a human human. Those parts that you call the nature of a human being difer to each person and there is no universal one. We talked about this already...

Quote
Again, I am defining good by the classical definition in philosophy:  the perfection of a thing's nature.  So therefore, acts are only good if they perfect our nature, and don't violate it.  I think you are using a different definition of good.

Which means that you need the nature of each person, which differs from person to person by what they wish their nature to be (You are human -- surprisingly, you shape your own nature and your goals.) Therefore, what is good for you =/= good for others (different definitions of Nature.) If killing someone perfects my nature of living my life without being annoyed by someone else, that would be, theorically, good. We are not using a different definition of good (yet), we are diverging on the point of the nature.

Quote
My definition of a human is a temporal being created in the image and likeness of God with an intellect and a will.  But you are probably going to debate this with me.  This doesn't really matter here, but do you now agree that humans have a common nature?
I will not debate you per your request (this doesn't really matter here). I will just answer it.

No. I do not agree. And I doubt I ever will, even if faced with the most solid evidence ever that we do.

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1055842#msg1055842
« Reply #92 on: March 31, 2013, 07:01:08 pm »
1. Morality is about being a good person.
2. We become a good person through doing good actions.
3. So our will must choose to do that good action.
4. We know what is good through our intellect.
5. When something is good it perfects the basics of what makes us human. (that's the philosophical definition).
6. Basically, then, because we want only what is good for us, and that is founded in what it means to be human, there has to be a set of morals.

7. If our human nature changes,  morality changes, because morality for anything is based on what it means to be that thing.

8. It can't all just depend on convention because just like physically, there are certain things outside of what we think about them, are good and bad for us to eat.  Eating a bowling ball is bad for me, no matter what I think about it.  Same thing with morality.

9. For the screwdriver example, if that isn't your definition of screwdriver, what makes a screwdriver a screwdriver?
10. And anyways, according to your argument, since the majority of society decides that murder is wrong, and they should be right, according to your argument shouldn't I be right in saying that the definition of a screwdriver is something that screws screws because the majority of society believes it therefore it should be true?

In order:

1. From Wikipedia: "Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are "good" (or right) and those that are "bad" (or wrong)."

2. Only because the majority of humans think so. Certain actions are seen as "good" by the majority. So if you do them, you will be seen as "good" by the majority.

3. What if I can afford to not care about what society thinks of me?

4. No, we do not. We are taught what the majority of humans believe to be "good" by our various seniors, e.g. parents and teachers. They, in turn, are taught by their parents and teachers. You can trace this all the way back to primitive times, and even to their evolutionary roots. Also, remember that morality used to be different in ancient times. Women used to have no rights whatsoever, and it used to be okay to have duels to the death for one's honor.

5. No, it doesn't. It makes those who believe your action to be "good" like you and treat you better. Doing what they think of as "bad" will make them dislike you and treat you worse.

6. I've rejected all of your premises so this conclusion does not hold.

7. Again, morals used to be quite different in ancient times. Yet they were still practiced by humans back then, as far as the human genome is concerned.

8. Not necessarily. Think of extreme cases. What if some sadistic omnipotent deity tells me that I have to eat a bowling ball? If I actually succeed in eating the bowling ball, the deity will restore me to full health and give me superpowers. But if I refuse to eat the bowling ball, the deity will condemn me to a state of eternal suffering. Then it'd be obviously good for me to at least try to eat the bowling ball. True, this scenario is contrived and specifically set up to undermine your argument. But it certainly is not the case that eating a bowling ball is bad, regardless of the context.

9. A screwdriver is whatever you think a screwdriver is. If it disagrees with what I think a screwdriver is, we can argue about it. If either of us succeeds in convincing the other, then the other now thinks differently about what a screwdriver is.

10. Consensus does not make a definition objective or absolute, because consensus is just as malleable as anything else. For example, the consensus used to be that "gay" meant "happy". Now the word instead means homosexual.

1. Sorry.  Here is what I am trying to say.  What is the thing(s) that you say makes humans humans?  If there is a defining characteristic that makes us human, everyone has to share that characteristic to be human.  Those parts the nature of a human being.
2. Again, I am defining good by the classical definition in philosophy:  the perfection of a thing's nature.  So therefore, acts are only good if they perfect our nature, and don't violate it.  I think you are using a different definition of good.
3. My definition of a human is a temporal being created in the image and likeness of God with an intellect and a will.  But you are probably going to debate this with me. This doesn't really matter here, but do you now agree that humans have a common nature?

In order:

1. I already said that this is a very complicated matter that is difficult to define clearly, hence why I don't believe in the existence of some "human nature". The closest answer would be the human genome, I think.

2. a) "Perfection" implies the existence of some "good". Again, I believe that all such "good" is subjective, decided by consensus at best.
b) If human nature is the human genome, how can it be "perfected"? By improving a human's natural abilities like strength and intelligence? That involves eugenics and biological enhancement, which is a whole other can of worms.

3. I vehemently disagree. I already said that my definition of a human is this pattern of elementary particles that most humans agree to be human. It's a very complicated matter, and we're going by intuition rather than any rigorous science or logic. And I do not trust intuitions.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1055861#msg1055861
« Reply #93 on: March 31, 2013, 08:56:39 pm »
What I should say is that if you create the screwdriver to mess with people, it is no longer a screwdriver, because the definition of a screwdriver is something that screws screws.  So your creation has an entirely different nature, and no longer has the nature of a screwdriver.  Because of that different nature, it now has a different goal.
The screwdriver I created to mess with people was the exact shape/materials/etc as a normal screwdriver. So the nature of something is not observable by examining the thing? If we cannot identify the nature of something by examining that thing then none of the goals observers claim it has count as evidence.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 08:59:43 pm by OldTrees »
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Offline destruct

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1056010#msg1056010
« Reply #94 on: April 01, 2013, 05:21:46 am »
What I should say is that if you create the screwdriver to mess with people, it is no longer a screwdriver, because the definition of a screwdriver is something that screws screws.  So your creation has an entirely different nature, and no longer has the nature of a screwdriver.  Because of that different nature, it now has a different goal.
The screwdriver I created to mess with people was the exact shape/materials/etc as a normal screwdriver. So the nature of something is not observable by examining the thing? If we cannot identify the nature of something by examining that thing then none of the goals observers claim it has count as evidence.

What are you calling it?  A screwdriver still?  Because that word is specifically linked to the concept of screwing screws.  A thing can't be called a screwdriver if it doesn't do what a screwdriver does, because all of our words come from concepts, or universals, we have about a certain thing.  That thing doesn't follow the concept of screwdriverness therefore it can't be called a screwdriver.

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Re: ...I am now atheist. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42488.msg1056014#msg1056014
« Reply #95 on: April 01, 2013, 05:29:55 am »
Quote
Sorry.  Here is what I am trying to say.  What is the thing(s) that you say makes humans humans?  If there is a defining characteristic that makes us human, everyone has to share that characteristic to be human.  Those parts the nature of a human being.

Not so long ago, we had this talk. The defining characteristic is different for each person. So there is no "If", because that would require an universal agreement in the sense of what defines what makes a human human. Those parts that you call the nature of a human being difer to each person and there is no universal one. We talked about this already...

Lets step away from humans and take simpler things as examples.  How do you know when something is red?  Am I correct in saying that you have this concept of "redness" in your mind to determine whether something is red?  And this concept of redness comes from your experience of red.  So in your mind, you define something as red because of this conceptual understanding of it.  Do you agree with me on this?

Quote
Again, I am defining good by the classical definition in philosophy:  the perfection of a thing's nature.  So therefore, acts are only good if they perfect our nature, and don't violate it.  I think you are using a different definition of good.
Quote
Which means that you need the nature of each person, which differs from person to person by what they wish their nature to be (You are human -- surprisingly, you shape your own nature and your goals.) Therefore, what is good for you =/= good for others (different definitions of Nature.) If killing someone perfects my nature of living my life without being annoyed by someone else, that would be, theorically, good. We are not using a different definition of good (yet), we are diverging on the point of the nature.

Before we go here, I would like to clear up the idea of nature, because I still think nature is universal, hence the name nature, not accidents (changes that can happen to a thing that do not change what it is; i.e. cutting off my finger does not change the fact that I am still human, and therefore it is an accidental change).

Quote
My definition of a human is a temporal being created in the image and likeness of God with an intellect and a will.  But you are probably going to debate this with me.  This doesn't really matter here, but do you now agree that humans have a common nature?
Quote
I will not debate you per your request (this doesn't really matter here). I will just answer it.

No. I do not agree. And I doubt I ever will, even if faced with the most solid evidence ever that we do.
I didn't want to debate this here either, I agree that it doesn't matter right now.
I don't know how else to convince you if you don't want to believe evidence.

 

blarg: