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Offline Nepycros

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Re: How to suck at your own religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55646.msg1154562#msg1154562
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2014, 11:09:21 pm »
I'm a christian. Typical behavior for the people at my church if a God-believing person proved God existed through scientific means would probably be "Well, what are the atheists gonna do now? We not only just proved them wrong through using logic they believe in, but we also proved we're right through logic they believe in."

Which is kinda odd, because this 'logic' used is nothing more than axiomatic assertions. They can pull ontological arguments, theological arguments, cosmological arguments, and so on, but it amounts to ample wordplay with no descriptive power about reality. Sure, when you define the rules to inevitably say 'a god exists', then don't be surprised when the axioms follow through and churn out the term 'a god exists'. It's sensible to be more cautious when trying to 'prove' a deity with logic, in my opinion. Demonstrating the existence of the divine won't be done from an armchair after thinking really hard. It'll take hard work.
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Offline eljoemo

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Re: How to suck at your own religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55646.msg1154564#msg1154564
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2014, 11:41:24 pm »
It all comes down to the fundamental problem of how much of an asshole you are. An Atheist telling a Christian that their beliefs are wrong is just as much as much a bad person than a Christian who tells and Atheist that his beliefs (or lack of, so to speak) are wrong. Because at the end of the day, they're your beliefs. Telling someone that their favourite song is terrible or that they should stop playing their favourite sport because it's stupid is pretty much the same principle as telling someone that their beliefs are wrong and they should change them. Is it okay to say, "I respectfully disagree with your religion." to a person? Yes. Is it okay to say, "God isn't real. Anyone who thinks God is real is stupid."? No, that's make you an asshole. And killing someone because they disagree with your religion? Don't even get me started.
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Re: How to suck at your own religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55646.msg1154568#msg1154568
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2014, 12:21:14 am »
http://xkcd.com/774/
+1

And about atheists? Well, to them their God is science. Nothing wrong with that, but don’t make fun os someone who believes in God. And religious people, don’t try to convince them to believe. As simple as that.
Science has cured diseases, advanced transportation and communication, and even sent us to the moon. If science is a god, it has clearly done much more for the human race than all of the other gods combined. ;)

In both cases (atheist and religious) science is "good" if prove us right and "evil" if proves us wrong. Typical human behaviour...
When has science ever been used to disprove atheism? Can you think of a single instance, in all of recorded history? Science is largely independent of religion, but when they conflict, it has always resulted in science disproving some sort of religious dogma (such as creationism).

It all comes down to the fundamental problem of how much of an asshole you are. An Atheist telling a Christian that their beliefs are wrong is just as much as much a bad person than a Christian who tells and Atheist that his beliefs (or lack of, so to speak) are wrong.
I do not believe that Gravity exists. I think the reason objects appear fall downwards is because the Flying Spaghetti Monster is pushing them towards the Earth with his mighty (invisible) tentacles. Would it be bad for you to tell me that my beliefs are wrong? Would it be bad for you to bring up a logical argument that dismantles them?

What if I thought tall people were inferior because they had not been touched by the Flying Spaghetti Monster's noodly appendage? Would it make you an asshole to tell me that I'm being unfair?
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Re: How to suck at your own religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55646.msg1154570#msg1154570
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2014, 01:03:03 am »
I dont like extreme situations or unrealistic ones. So... @Root. I perfectly agree with eljoemo. If you believe that, then fine. But Id say to you that a tall person might save your life one day and you might want to reconsider your beliefs to not be biased against a group of people as they might help you in the future, no matter how (in)significant the help is, its still help.

"The best way to win an argument is to not argue." "Do not condemn another person." More straight forward... "Do not tell another person they're wrong. If you grew up to be exactly like them, then you'd most certainly share the same opinion and beliefs as them." If you truly believed that, then I certainly wouldn't tell you your beliefs are wrong, if I did that, then how would you feel towards me? You'd never help me in the future even if I needed your help. Also, how would I benefit from proving you wrong (if possible)? It'd only grow more resentment between us.

EDIT:@Nepycros, I lack the vocabulary understanding to understand the first half of what you said.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 01:04:54 am by CrockettRocket »
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Offline eljoemo

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Re: How to suck at your own religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55646.msg1154571#msg1154571
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2014, 01:11:47 am »
I do not believe that Gravity exists. I think the reason objects appear fall downwards is because the Flying Spaghetti Monster is pushing them towards the Earth with his mighty (invisible) tentacles. Would it be bad for you to tell me that my beliefs are wrong? Would it be bad for you to bring up a logical argument that dismantles them?

This really depends on how open to interpretation you are. I could say, "Well most people believe that mass attracts other mass so the mass of the Earth attracts people and apples and stuff to it." (I think that's how it works :P). And then you could say, "Okay, cool. I still believe in the flying spaghetti monster, though." and we'd leave the conversation at that. Or, you could say, "That's total bull crap. It's invisible tentacles and you're wrong." in which case you'd be the one in the wrong. But then in a perfect world your beliefs really are none of my business, whether they can or cannot be disproved.

What if I thought tall people were inferior because they had not been touched by the Flying Spaghetti Monster's noodly appendage? Would it make you an asshole to tell me that I'm being unfair?

Having an opinion is not necessarily the same as being prejudice. If you acted on your thought by insulting or mistreating or segregating tall people then you're the one being an asshole and I have no problem pointing that out to you.
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Offline Espithel

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Re: How to suck at your own religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55646.msg1154573#msg1154573
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2014, 01:31:56 am »
Just remember guys, atheism IS a religion. If it's not, people certainly act like it is.

I love how people think that because science is made out of complete and utter proof, it's inherently better than religion, even though science starts as dogma and is just as dogma-ry as religion itself.

1 + 1 = 2, right? Did you know that the proof of that is 372 pages long?

How about quantum mechanics? Einstein completely refused to believe that quantum mechanics existed. He refused to believe that "god played dice with the universe" and he devoted a lot of his later life to disproving quantum mechanics. He was so blinded by science that he raged at things we now know and assume to be true. Maybe. There's your science being used to disprove atheism.

What about the half-life of facts? Most medical people are told that a lot of the things they learn will be proven untrue in the next 60 years. But they will use what untrue knowledge they have, and trust that it's true.

Science is just religion that makes sense.
The start of science is trust in an observation, and then trying to make that observation as true as possible. You trust that your observation is true, and hope it doesn't let you down.

Remember Alexandro Volta, the guy who made the first battery, and Luigi Galvanni, the guy who found the first electrical impulse in a frog, and thus said that there is a distinct form of electricity called animal electricity that functions differently from normal electricity? He saw a dead frog spark from electricity. What else was he going to assume? Volta proved his trust wrong by trusting that science

Isn't that the same as religion?

Silly humans.
There we go... Just my two cents.
Religion is like a penis indeed.
Nice to have one.
Nice to be proud of it.
Don't whip it out in public and start waving it around.

Of course, as the owner of a penis, I take offense to that comment, seeing that my penis doesn't enslave people, start crusades, brainwash weak-minded people, terrorize countries, pour thousands of currency points into conspiracy theories,  and/or do Hitlery things (Hitler's on both sides, being a christian using science kill jews. Think about that.). I'm more scared of what would happen if my penis DID do those things.

Or spark pointless debates on internet forums...
Oh wait.

(PS: I'm an atheist with a slight side of "If god did exist, he would be really angry of all these people minimodding and warning people they'll go to hell for doing things. That's his job. It's like saying they can't do his job. How dare they.")
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 01:34:49 am by Frozengaia »

Offline Zso_ZsoTopic starter

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Re: How to suck at your own religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55646.msg1154574#msg1154574
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2014, 01:40:38 am »
The whole point of science is to be skeptical of everything. The fact that old theories are proven wrong and replaced with improved / better theories is exactly the main benefit of the scientific method,  its flexibility is the greatest feature, not a weakness.

On the other hand, religions are based on fixed beliefs that you must accept as is and cannot change -- that's the very definition of dogma.
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Offline RootRanger

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Re: How to suck at your own religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55646.msg1154576#msg1154576
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2014, 01:53:15 am »
How about quantum mechanics? Einstein completely refused to believe that quantum mechanics existed. He refused to believe that "god played dice with the universe" and he devoted a lot of his later life to disproving quantum mechanics. He was so blinded by science that he raged at things we now know and assume to be true. Maybe. There's your science being used to disprove atheism.
How does that possibly disprove atheism? Is a rejection of quantum mechanics somehow necessary for a disbelief in god? Because I must have never gotten the memo.

As for why science is superior to religion, in addition to the reasons Zso Zso stated, science works.
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Offline Espithel

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Re: How to suck at your own religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55646.msg1154577#msg1154577
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2014, 02:10:10 am »
The whole point of science is to be skeptical of everything. The fact that old theories are proven wrong and replaced with improved / better theories is exactly the main benefit of the scientific method,  its flexibility is the greatest feature, not a weakness.

On the other hand, religions are based on fixed beliefs that you must accept as is and cannot change -- that's the very definition of dogma.

Then clearly, some scientists and atheists aren't doing their job right by blindly assuming science is love, science is life.

Also, religion DOES change.
Also, Crusades, soaking, protestants, the 10000 different varients of christianity, the somewhat possible fact that Islam is a different form of Christianity and Sikhism is a middle ground between them, making Sikhism half christian half half christian, Japanese people having Shinto births, Christian weddings and Bhhudist funerals...

Going back to hitler:
Spoiler for Hidden:

See this?
This is a piece of christian propaganda.
It's about a girl who forgets about the bible, joins the hitler youth, gets a boyfriend who, when she stays in berlin, so blindly addicted to hitler wants her to be raped by 3 russians which nearly actually happens, then after the war she magically learns about the bible again, DARING to believe, and... err... Then she goes on to hate hitler, with the added GO USA message.

... Hitler was a christian.
20 years later, christians hate him.
Yup.
...
"The hills are alive, with the sound of privilege!"- Some atheist who blindly believes in science and wants to murder religion. Gotta love the crazies on both sides.
(In all seriousness, read this. It's so hilariously bad.)

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way."
(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
This is a passage from the bible promoting slavery, something most christians our days despise.
There's thousands of these and they're only used by people who go out of their way to denounce this stuff, so I'll only use one.

And then there's bible raps...
Why is it always the christians that get the examples?
Silly Englishmen getting all the attention.
Erm...

Boko haram has guns. They didn't have guns 2000 years ago and guns are popularized in the western world of teh US, even though boko haram litterally means "we hate western education."

There are christian mathematicians. During the crusades, they banned the number 0 from being used because it was an evil muslim number.

Religion changes too, you know.
Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.
It was religion that started modern science too, with the muslims founding the basics of modern science and the cathedrals funding the rest.

...Speaking of muslims, science is no different to religion to them. So... Why can't we all be muslims and have the best of both worlds!? ;-;

And I can't be bothered to quote...
That (attempts to) disproves atheism, because:

Einstein belived that quantum mechanics was bogus. God didn't play dice with the universe.
So he devoted his entire scientific knowledge and understanding, religiously, to disproving... science.
You asked a difficult question, expect a dodgy answer.

(I love how I'm doing these giant wordwalls, when all I need to say is "Some atheists need to stop being so religiously atheist." Here's a better way of putting it: Science is, in a way, a religion, so if science works, what's stopping other religions from working?)

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Re: How to suck at your own religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55646.msg1154579#msg1154579
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2014, 02:47:49 am »
You asked a difficult question, expect a dodgy answer.
I asked a question that has no answer. That was the whole point. The fact that you have failed to provide a viable answer makes me even more confident that ARTHANASIOS's original assertion was illogical.

(I love how I'm doing these giant wordwalls, when all I need to say is "Some atheists need to stop being so religiously atheist." Here's a better way of putting it: Science is, in a way, a religion, so if science works, what's stopping other religions from working?)
Science isn't a religion because it works. If religion worked, it would be accepted as science.
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Offline Nepycros

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Re: How to suck at your own religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55646.msg1154581#msg1154581
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2014, 03:16:12 am »
All that yammering about how religion changed... No, the morality of people changed. They just changed religion accordingly. The christianity people are involved with now is NOT the same as 50-100 years ago.
Perception is the source of misunderstanding.

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Offline ARTHANASIOS

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Re: How to suck at your own religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55646.msg1154588#msg1154588
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2014, 06:03:02 am »
When has science ever been used to disprove atheism? Can you think of a single instance, in all of recorded history? Science is largely independent of religion, but when they conflict, it has always resulted in science disproving some sort of religious dogma (such as creationism).

1st: I can think of multiple instances. Early mathematicians and geometrists claimed that geometry was the tool God used to forge the universe and they were actually believing and supporting this theory (e.g. Kepler). Biologists and Chemists believed the only way to produce organic chemical compounds was through living organisms; till a schoolar accidentally creating urine by non-organic materials, western chemists were supporting the theory of vitalism. Till the age of Elightment, every single western scientist believed in the Aristotelian way of viewing things and it was a "heresy" for science itself to abandon this way of thinking. So, science was NOT independent of religion to most of its history and greatly dissaproving of atheism as a result.

2nd: Common sense, science & logic actually disprove the atheistic dogma of "there is no God out there and I can prove it!". You can't prove a thing either way. Science has beaten idolatric & paganistic religions that actually believed there was a Zeus on a cloud and threw lightnings when angry (hence the thunderstorms), but it can't prove the existence/inexistence of an omniscience (infinite knowledge), omnipotence (unlimited power), omnipresence (present everywhere), omnibenevolence (perfect goodness) being because, by definition, observation and logic are limited to the boundaries of our universe and God, if exists, exceeds far away than our universe.

3rd: You have any right to claim there is a flying spaggeti monster which is omniscience/omnipotence/omnipresence/omnibenevolence because science/logic/rationalism can't touch something which is by definition out of its field. However, if you claim there is an actual flying spaggeti monster buried under the sea, waiting to be released and wreak havoc, you can prove by 99% that such a thing doesn't exist.
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