God's Perfection

[maverixk]

However, he has been known to demand things. The ten commandments. I realize that you'll say that that was like a parent giving guidelines to a child and then putting them in time-out when/if they disobeyed. Except for the fact that punishment was death...seems a bit extreme doncha think?

[Artois]

[BluePriest]

However, he has been known to demand things. The ten commandments. I realize that you'll say that that was like a parent giving guidelines to a child and then putting them in time-out when/if they disobeyed. Except for the fact that punishment was death...seems a bit extreme doncha think?

Sigh...

Commandment 1-4 all relate to God, and if you dont believe in him, wont matter to you so I will instead focus on the final 6.
Honor your father and mother
Do not murder
Do not commit adultery
Do not steal
Do not lie
Do not covet

Which one of those do you have a problem with?

except that we arent damned for eternity unless we chose to be.

[Nepycros]

except that we arent damned for eternity unless we chose to be.

Methinks that's not exactly true, BP.

[BluePriest]

*sigh* this topic has resorted to trolling. I suppose its time for me to take my leave.

[OldTrees]

*sigh* this topic has resorted to trolling. I suppose its time for me to take my leave.

Before you go.
I would like to know what your explanation is for how people who have not read the Bible would be able to enter heaven.
This includes a variety of different circumstances and probably has more than one explanation.
Young Children
Ancient Societies [BC]
Religiously Sheltered Individuals

[PuppyChow]

However, he has been known to demand things. The ten commandments. I realize that you'll say that that was like a parent giving guidelines to a child and then putting them in time-out when/if they disobeyed. Except for the fact that punishment was death...seems a bit extreme doncha think?

If you're referring to the "wages of sin is death" line, it's just a romantic way of saying number six in my previous post. It also encapsulates God's grace in that though we DO deserve to die for sin, God is loving and willing to forgive. It's not suggesting people should put others to death for any sin; that's absurd, and when the concept of original sin is considered, we would be killing babies as soon as they're born.

*sigh* this topic has resorted to trolling. I suppose its time for me to take my leave.

Before you go.
I would like to know what your explanation is for how people who have not read the Bible would be able to enter heaven.
This includes a variety of different circumstances and probably has more than one explanation.
Young Children
Ancient Societies [BC]
Religiously Sheltered Individuals

I'll hit on each of these for you.
Young Children: One verse of interest is 2 Samuel 12:22-23, in which David laments his loss of his baby but says he will see him again (in heaven). There are other Bible verses I could give and explain, like John 3:18, but basically it's fairly certain young children not old enough to make a decision or know God are forgiven their sins and allowed to heaven based on Jesus/God's loving nature.

Ancient Societies: They had other ways of getting to heaven; in fact, much of the Old Testament law (like not eating pork) was to assure this. Abraham's Bosom is believed to have been there for the dead who were awaiting a savior.

Religiously Sheltered Individuals: I assume you're talking of those in forests in the Amazon, for instance. To be honest, they won't get in to heaven, and it's from this fact that Christianity is such a missionary religion. Some believe that no matter where you are an opportunity will come for you to know Christ, but I'm not sure about that (though it makes sense due to God's loving and fair nature). So I guess I just can't answer you there. Part of me believes that it's simply impossible, part of me believes that they are like infants and are given God's grace naturally.

[OldTrees]

*sigh* this topic has resorted to trolling. I suppose its time for me to take my leave.

Before you go.
I would like to know what your explanation is for how people who have not read the Bible would be able to enter heaven.
This includes a variety of different circumstances and probably has more than one explanation.
Young Children
Ancient Societies [BC]
Religiously Sheltered Individuals

I'll hit on each of these for you.
Young Children: One verse of interest is 2 Samuel 12:22-23, in which David laments his loss of his baby but says he will see him again (in heaven). There are other Bible verses I could give and explain, like John 3:18, but basically it's fairly certain young children not old enough to make a decision or know God are forgiven their sins and allowed to heaven based on Jesus/God's loving nature.

Ancient Societies: They had other ways of getting to heaven; in fact, much of the Old Testament law (like not eating pork) was to assure this. Abraham's Bosom is believed to have been there for the dead who were awaiting a savior.

Religiously Sheltered Individuals: I assume you're talking of those in forests in the Amazon, for instance. To be honest, they won't get in to heaven, and it's from this fact that Christianity is such a missionary religion. Some believe that no matter where you are an opportunity will come for you to know Christ, but I'm not sure about that (though it makes sense due to God's loving and fair nature). So I guess I just can't answer you there. Part of me believes that it's simply impossible, part of me believes that they are like infants and are given God's grace naturally.

How are these explanations (1 & 3 specifically) consistent with God being unable to Forgive imperfection without belief in himself?

Ancient Societies also refereed to societies that were before Christ and never heard of Jews. But you answered this in RSI.

[PuppyChow]

-snip-

 Mostly because the people have not made a conscious choice to keep Jesus Christ out of their hearts. In that, I'll admit, my original example was incorrect. Jesus's gift of salvation is most akin to this, I suppose:
 Someone is before you with a gift in their hand. You can either choose to accept said gift or reject it. Then there are those that can't even see it; they are the ones of which we're speaking. For these, the person leaves the gift on the table for later (when they die).
 
 That may not be a great example either. What I'm trying to say is that Jesus *can* forgive you as long as you let Him into your heart; this may happen after death in the case of those that did not have a chance to know him during life. For those of us that are aware of Him during life, however, we are forced to make a choice: believe or not believe. Denying Him restricts Jesus from your heart; the opposite for believing.
 
 Then again, I'm no priest or pastor or anything, so I may not be the best person to ask. Woohoo.

[OldTrees]

-snip-

 Mostly because the people have not made a conscious choice to keep Jesus Christ out of their hearts. In that, I'll admit, my original example was incorrect. Jesus's gift of salvation is most akin to this, I suppose:
 Someone is before you with a gift in their hand. You can either choose to accept said gift or reject it. Then there are those that can't even see it; they are the ones of which we're speaking. For these, the person leaves the gift on the table for later (when they die).
 
 That may not be a great example either. What I'm trying to say is that Jesus *can* forgive you as long as you let Him into your heart; this may happen after death in the case of those that did not have a chance to know him during life. For those of us that are aware of Him during life, however, we are forced to make a choice: believe or not believe. Denying Him restricts Jesus from your heart; the opposite for believing.
 
 Then again, I'm no priest or pastor or anything, so I may not be the best person to ask. Woohoo.

The underlined part is an interesting explanation. However it sounds that based on that in life we have 3 choices (Believe A, Believe !A and Undecided) the undecided should under this explanation be given a time after death to decide (Believe A or Believe !A). What if a soul cannot decide?

[Nepycros]

-snip-

 Mostly because the people have not made a conscious choice to keep Jesus Christ out of their hearts. In that, I'll admit, my original example was incorrect. Jesus's gift of salvation is most akin to this, I suppose:
 Someone is before you with a gift in their hand. You can either choose to accept said gift or reject it. Then there are those that can't even see it; they are the ones of which we're speaking. For these, the person leaves the gift on the table for later (when they die).
 
 That may not be a great example either. What I'm trying to say is that Jesus *can* forgive you as long as you let Him into your heart; this may happen after death in the case of those that did not have a chance to know him during life. For those of us that are aware of Him during life, however, we are forced to make a choice: believe or not believe. Denying Him restricts Jesus from your heart; the opposite for believing.
 
 Then again, I'm no priest or pastor or anything, so I may not be the best person to ask. Woohoo.

So why doesn't Jesus just say 'hi' once a person dies, and convert them there? Some people just have the mindset that they need proof to believe something. And yet apparently that means they aren't worthy of God's grace? I'm not buying it. If Jesus shows himself to those that never heard of him after they die, why wouldn't he talk to someone who didn't convert when they were alive, that had heard of him? Is the blame really on that person, whose mind was bent on getting evidence, or on someone else, who knew all of this would happen yet felt obliged to send them to hell for rejecting what they simply thought wasn't a worthy belief?

[OldTrees]

-snip-

 Mostly because the people have not made a conscious choice to keep Jesus Christ out of their hearts. In that, I'll admit, my original example was incorrect. Jesus's gift of salvation is most akin to this, I suppose:
 Someone is before you with a gift in their hand. You can either choose to accept said gift or reject it. Then there are those that can't even see it; they are the ones of which we're speaking. For these, the person leaves the gift on the table for later (when they die).
 
 That may not be a great example either. What I'm trying to say is that Jesus *can* forgive you as long as you let Him into your heart; this may happen after death in the case of those that did not have a chance to know him during life. For those of us that are aware of Him during life, however, we are forced to make a choice: believe or not believe. Denying Him restricts Jesus from your heart; the opposite for believing.
 
 Then again, I'm no priest or pastor or anything, so I may not be the best person to ask. Woohoo.

So why doesn't Jesus just say 'hi' once a person dies, and convert them there? Some people just have the mindset that they need proof to believe something. And yet apparently that means they aren't worthy of God's grace? I'm not buying it. If Jesus shows himself to those that never heard of him after they die, why wouldn't he talk to someone who didn't convert when they were alive, that had heard of him? Is the blame really on that person, whose mind was bent on getting evidence, or on someone else, who knew all of this would happen yet felt obliged to send them to hell for rejecting what they simply thought wasn't a worthy belief?

Actually PuppyChow's explanation seemed to indicate Jesus might be doing that and the only people in hell are those that would reject him even then.