God's Perfection

[Belthus]

Nowhere in the verses you quoted do I see "and God caused Adam and Eve's descendants to sin," which is what I was talking about.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say, "God did not cause the rest of the human race to inherit sin."

If God wanted people to be born without sin, are you saying he couldn't make it so? It's not like making a rock so large he couldn't lift it.

[BluePriest]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say, "God did not cause the rest of the human race to inherit sin."
If God wanted people to be born without sin, are you saying he couldn't make it so?

What kind of reasoning is that? So as long as it doesnt state the negative, the positive is true?

Aside from that, once again, this has been covered.

It could also be argued that punishment of the children is a side-effect of punishing the fathers... that the punishment of the fathers would be so severe that the effects would be felt four generations down the line, or that the children will inherit their fathers' sinful tendencies.  If a father is put to death, I think we would all agree his children will likely be negatively affected, especially if they are old enough to grieve.

[johannhowitzer]

You're twisting my words again, Belthus.  I said the Bible doesn't list inherited sin as part of the curse - and it doesn't.  In the Bible, the inheritance of the propensity to do evil is described as a direct cause of Adam and Eve's actions.  What are you trying to make me say?  Your post doesn't disagree with anything I've said.

[Belthus]

If you want to disbelieve the doctrine of Original Sin, it doesn't bother me. However, it fits with other doctrines in Christianity. Every religion has gods that punish evil deeds and reward good deeds. When a Christian proselytizes, he has to convince someone that her other religion isn't good enough. If she can say, "I am a good person who does good things, follows the law, helps others, etc. So what if my gods turn out not to exist? Your god will reward good people too, right?" To which the Christian answers, "Being a good person isn't enough. Nothing you can do can overcome your sinful nature. Only my God can close the gap through his grace and forgiveness, which only go to true believers." Thus, Original Sin devalues good behavior.

[johannhowitzer]

I didn't say what I believe.  I never have.  I stick to addressing logical arguments.

[BluePriest]

If you want to disbelieve the doctrine of Original Sin, it doesn't bother me. However, it fits with other doctrines in Christianity. Every religion has gods that punish evil deeds and reward good deeds. When a Christian proselytizes, he has to convince someone that her other religion isn't good enough. If she can say, "I am a good person who does good things, follows the law, helps others, etc. So what if my gods turn out not to exist? Your god will reward good people too, right?" To which the Christian answers, "Being a good person isn't enough. Nothing you can do can overcome your sinful nature. Only my God can close the gap through his grace and forgiveness, which only go to true believers." Thus, Original Sin devalues good behavior.

Im sorry but I dont see how original sin has anything to do with this post...We have ALL sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Thats why he has to close the gap. Not because adam and eve sinned, but because all of us have sinned as well.

[Artois]

Im stuck in the conundrum of why a perfect god has created absolute atheists... what am I here for?!

[adrix89]

1)If god is all that is, and he is perfect, then everything is perfect.
2)Sure.
3)If god is everything,then everything is god thus all is one,selfish and selfless is irrelevant since there is no other.

[CCCombobreaker]

Artois, you were not born an atheist.  You chose to be one at some point.  Or phrased as you put it 'God created you and then you became an atheist'.

[OldTrees]

Artois, you were not born an atheist.  You chose to be one at some point.  Or phrased as you put it 'God created you and then you became an atheist'.

Babies do not have inherent beliefs about God. Therefore they start their life not believing in a god. (not believing in a god =/= believing no gods exist) Such lack of belief is the definition of Atheist.

[johannhowitzer]

Anyway, determinism is related to the problem of free will, not the question of a deity; and it's also immaterial when acting pragmatically in the real world.  It only has value in philosophy.

Combobreaker's comment still has merit, OT - due to socialization and discourse.  There is an age everyone reaches at which culture presents us with evidence for various worldviews, and any person (who is not so intellectually numb as to watch reality TV all day and never question anything) will be made to choose - whether to remain an atheist due to lack of evidence for an alternative (or the presence of counter-evidence, but more likely both), or become convinced of another worldview, or become what we'd call "agnostic" - unconvinced of any particular view including an atheist (no god exists) universe.  (Atheism as a worldview is not mutually exclusive with agnosticism, as has been covered here before.)

[PuppyChow]

(Note: Christian viewpoint. Can't speak for other religions).
I hate this argument. Here, I'll do it all in one post for you.
   1. Yes
   2. Yes
   3. Yes

Now you're going to say:
"Well then how come, if God is perfect and not selfish, he demands us to worship him? Doesn't that seem selfish?"

Answer: No.

This is a common misconception, but God doesn't want us to worship him for himself, nor does he demand it. He asks it out of love for us.

Let's do this with a few stipulations.

1) Heaven is a perfect place. This is fairly well established; good luck arguing against that.
2) To get into heaven, you must be perfect. Again, hard to argue; heaven wouldn't be perfect if there were imperfect people.
3) Sin is an imperfection in God's eyes. Goes without saying.
4) So a person with sin cannot get into heaven. If sin causes us to be imperfect, someone with sin can never go to heaven because you aren't perfect.
5) EVERY person sins. Again, not arguable.
6) So without God's grace, it is impossible for a person to go to heaven. If 1-5 are true, this must be true as well.
7) God really wants to forgive us our sins (and has through Jesus Christ). Indeed.
8) But Jesus can't forgive us if we don't let him into our hearts. Basically, Jesus is right in front of you, with an outstretched hand containing the key to heaven. But if you don't believe Jesus is there, refuse to even see him, how are you going to take it?
9) So worshiping God and believing in Jesus Christ as our savior is the ONLY way to heaven. If 1-8 are true.
10) Therefore, it is not God "demanding" (in reality, asking) worship out of selflessness, but out of love as he wants to let us in heaven.

Yaaaaaaaay (by the way, this may have already been addressed; I haven't read the recent posts).