God's Perfection

[johannhowitzer]

One major factor in this whole debate - at least for me - is what I think of as the "principle of intellectual honesty."  I've gone over it here before: it's the idea that unless in denial, a person's belief is simply that which he sees as most likely to be true.  This would include people from the "undecided" category, and would include most agnostics (though agnostics are far from the only group represented).

Say I'm an atheist, for example, and I see a lot of evidence out there.  As is wont among many contemporary atheists, I haven't rejected Christianity because I don't want to conform to its moral standard, or out of denial, or willful rejection of a deity I don't like.  Say I've rejected Christianity because my reason is telling me it's less likely to be true than other things.  That puts me squarely in the "Believe !A" category, but as long as I'm actively seeking truth, my "unbelief" is outside my control - I'd just have to stumble upon something that convinces me to switch to "Believe A."

Of course logic also dictates I fall back here on the "we all deserve it" clause, and my consignment to eternal punishment is a sad accident... right?  That's how I'm understanding this so far...

[PuppyChow]

-snip-

 Mostly because the people have not made a conscious choice to keep Jesus Christ out of their hearts. In that, I'll admit, my original example was incorrect. Jesus's gift of salvation is most akin to this, I suppose:
 Someone is before you with a gift in their hand. You can either choose to accept said gift or reject it. Then there are those that can't even see it; they are the ones of which we're speaking. For these, the person leaves the gift on the table for later (when they die).
 
 That may not be a great example either. What I'm trying to say is that Jesus *can* forgive you as long as you let Him into your heart; this may happen after death in the case of those that did not have a chance to know him during life. For those of us that are aware of Him during life, however, we are forced to make a choice: believe or not believe. Denying Him restricts Jesus from your heart; the opposite for believing.
 
 Then again, I'm no priest or pastor or anything, so I may not be the best person to ask. Woohoo.

The underlined part is an interesting explanation. However it sounds that based on that in life we have 3 choices (Believe A, Believe !A and Undecided) the undecided should under this explanation be given a time after death to decide (Believe A or Believe !A). What if a soul cannot decide?

That's the thing. Undecided essentially means that you've been exposed to Christianity and are still skeptical of it. Thus, you are rejecting God and are refusing his gift of salvation.
Okay, I think you guys aren't fully understanding what I'm trying to say. I'll try to start from scratch.

Let's go through three people and see how their salvation works out. Person A, Person B, Person C.

A: Person A is a child who was born with a disease that results in his death before he turned one. Jesus, out of love (see scriptures I've already quoted) forgives him his sins despite not being consciously accepted. He is able to do so because the baby never denied or barred his heart, either.

B: Person B is a tribal native in Africa. Just like with the child, he never is exposed to Christianity. Jesus forgives his sins as the native didn't deny him either.

So you see, in these two examples, the two people have a common factor: they are infants in their spiritual walk. The reasons they are still in their infancy with their spiritual walk with Christ are different, but spiritually, they are both babies unable to comprehend God's grace for one reason or another.

C: Person C is a logical fellow in the States. He grew up in an atheist household but was still exposed to Christianity through acquaintances, charity, and the general saturation of religion in the United States. However, because he believes himself to be a man of logic, and there is no empirical evidence of God, he chooses to become agnostic and takes a stance that it is impossible to know whether or not God is real. Consciously or not, he has closed his heart to Jesus by doing so. He is not an infant in his spiritual walk; far from it. By not having faith and believing God to be real, he is unable to receive Jesus's gift of salvation.


(And as a side note to johannhowitzer, I too struggle with the "principle of intellectual honesty," but choose to have faith that what Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote is generally true and Jesus Christ truly did come to save us. It seems contradictory, I know, and it's hard for me to explain, but it's just what I feel, man. Ya feels me brah?)

[OldTrees]

If one can deny God without believing God does not exist would you please explain what the word "deny" means when you use it? It is a strange claim to claim that someone open to either possibility has closed their heart to either.

[PuppyChow]

If one can deny God without believing God does not exist would you please explain what the word "deny" means when you use it? It is a strange claim to claim that someone open to either possibility has closed their heart to either.

Deny means to understand and know about it, and still not believe. By knowing and not believing, even if one is open to the possibility, the person is denying God entrance.

[OldTrees]

If one can deny God without believing God does not exist would you please explain what the word "deny" means when you use it? It is a strange claim to claim that someone open to either possibility has closed their heart to either.

Deny means to understand and know about it, and still not believe. By knowing and not believing, even if one is open to the possibility, the person is denying God entrance.

How is that different than someone not knowing, not believing and not believing it to be false? In both cases they are open to the possibility, don't believe the idea to be false and have not yet allowed God to enter.

This is akin to a half opened door. It can be closed, left ajar or opened. One has not denied a visitor until one closes the door. Until then they are still deciding.

[PuppyChow]

If one can deny God without believing God does not exist would you please explain what the word "deny" means when you use it? It is a strange claim to claim that someone open to either possibility has closed their heart to either.

Deny means to understand and know about it, and still not believe. By knowing and not believing, even if one is open to the possibility, the person is denying God entrance.

How is that different than someone not knowing, not believing and not believing it to be false? In both cases they are open to the possibility, don't believe the idea to be false and have not yet allowed God to enter.

This is akin to a half opened door. It can be closed, left ajar or opened. One has not denied a visitor until one closes the door. Until then they are still deciding.

Because in one case, they have CHOSEN to not decide. In the other they have not.

[OldTrees]

If one can deny God without believing God does not exist would you please explain what the word "deny" means when you use it? It is a strange claim to claim that someone open to either possibility has closed their heart to either.

Deny means to understand and know about it, and still not believe. By knowing and not believing, even if one is open to the possibility, the person is denying God entrance.

How is that different than someone not knowing, not believing and not believing it to be false? In both cases they are open to the possibility, don't believe the idea to be false and have not yet allowed God to enter.

This is akin to a half opened door. It can be closed, left ajar or opened. One has not denied a visitor until one closes the door. Until then they are still deciding.

Because in one case, they have CHOSEN to not decide. In the other they have not.

Only a subset have chosen not to decide. Most have chosen to think on it at least a little bit longer.

[Nepycros]

Frankly, I'd rather go to Hell than a Heaven that operates under the principle that a good person goes to Hell simply because his mind is wired in the way that he actually needs FACTS to believe in something. :/

[PuppyChow]

If one can deny God without believing God does not exist would you please explain what the word "deny" means when you use it? It is a strange claim to claim that someone open to either possibility has closed their heart to either.

Deny means to understand and know about it, and still not believe. By knowing and not believing, even if one is open to the possibility, the person is denying God entrance.

How is that different than someone not knowing, not believing and not believing it to be false? In both cases they are open to the possibility, don't believe the idea to be false and have not yet allowed God to enter.

This is akin to a half opened door. It can be closed, left ajar or opened. One has not denied a visitor until one closes the door. Until then they are still deciding.

Because in one case, they have CHOSEN to not decide. In the other they have not.

Only a subset have chosen not to decide. Most have chosen to think on it at least a little bit longer.

If they have been exposed to religion they are not infants in their spiritual walk. If they happen to die before they make a decision, then sorry, they should have made a decision sooner. I, personally, believe that someone like that will have an epiphany of some sort the split second before they die, and MAKE a decision, be it one way or the other. I highly doubt anybody that intends to eventually make a decision in their lifetime will not make it before they die. They may be hurried more than they would wish by an unexpected illness or accident, but the decision will be made.

(And to Nepy, no, you wouldn't, as hell is supposed to be a place of eternal torment. That doesn't sound like fun to me.)

[maverixk]

(And to Nepy, no, you wouldn't, as hell is supposed to be a place of eternal torment. That doesn't sound like fun to me.)

While I don't think he worded it in the most correct way, his I still agree with his sentiment. I'm pretty sure you understand his meaning.

[OldTrees]

If one can deny God without believing God does not exist would you please explain what the word "deny" means when you use it? It is a strange claim to claim that someone open to either possibility has closed their heart to either.

Deny means to understand and know about it, and still not believe. By knowing and not believing, even if one is open to the possibility, the person is denying God entrance.

How is that different than someone not knowing, not believing and not believing it to be false? In both cases they are open to the possibility, don't believe the idea to be false and have not yet allowed God to enter.

This is akin to a half opened door. It can be closed, left ajar or opened. One has not denied a visitor until one closes the door. Until then they are still deciding.

Because in one case, they have CHOSEN to not decide. In the other they have not.

Only a subset have chosen not to decide. Most have chosen to think on it at least a little bit longer.

If they have been exposed to religion they are not infants in their spiritual walk. If they happen to die before they make a decision, then sorry, they should have made a decision sooner. I, personally, believe that someone like that will have an epiphany of some sort the split second before they die, and MAKE a decision, be it one way or the other. I highly doubt anybody that intends to eventually make a decision in their lifetime will not make it before they die. They may be hurried more than they would wish by an unexpected illness or accident, but the decision will be made.

(And to Nepy, no, you wouldn't, as hell is supposed to be a place of eternal torment. That doesn't sound like fun to me.)

A lifetime is a very short time to consider the question of God's existence. Especially for those that want to believe the truth instead of merely wanting their belief to be true. The closer they are towards this extreme the longer the question takes to answer. If there is not epiphany, at least they will have the comfort of having tried their best. It may sound like it but this is not a small comfort.

[johannhowitzer]

If they have been exposed to religion they are not infants in their spiritual walk.

Depends what you mean by "exposed."  I personally know a lot of people who have encountered the odd street evangelist or seen the effects of extreme Islam in the news, and if that counts as exposure, then that's a pretty good counterexample, since a lot of these people hardly think about the supernatural.

If they happen to die before they make a decision, then sorry, they should have made a decision sooner.

Missing a crucial word - they should have made the correct decision sooner.

I highly doubt anybody that intends to eventually make a decision in their lifetime will not make it before they die.

If they know their expiration date, sure.  A protracted-case cancer patient might be a bit hurried to figure things out.  Lots of people die young, though - I'll place good money on the notion that some of them were still trying to figure all this out.  In good uncertain faith, that is, not procrastination and wishy-washiness.