Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience)

[maverixk]

And wow i realized this says omniscience which is just knowing everything. How does god being omniscient make it so we don't have a free will.

I have already conceded this point. Omniscience does not negate free will.

One perspective:
Well, let's say you make a robot and give it the command: "If there's a fork in the path, make a left turn."
You know exactly what route it will go on, and you know that the route it will go on will make it exit the west exit of the maze.
Does that mean that you gave the robot the command: "Exit the maze through the west exit"? No, you gave it the command: "If there's a fork in the path, make a left turn."
In terms of God, Free Will, and Fate: God gave us the ability to make a choice. He knows what choices we will make, and he knows what kind of fate our choices will lead us to, but he has still given us the ability to make a choice, not forced us to reach our destination.

Another perspective:
Maybe God didn't give us true free will, but something that is effectively free will, as in we can make choices, as a moral agent, through our own reasoning without the interference of another being, notably a higher power that is God. In this definition of free will, we most certainly do have it.

Yet another perspective:
In the robot example, it could be argued that by programming it to take a left if there is a fork and by designing the maze in such a way as to make the robot exit the maze through the west exit that the maker of the robot and the maze has effectively controlled the outcome the robot reaches. In this perspective the designer is seen as virtually controlling the way the robot travels through the maze, in effect eliminating that bit of free will.

[darkrobe]

I hope this thread hasn't died. its been interesting reading. I wanted to make comments.

Omniscience vs free will. So i think ive seen the question  asked, " how does being omniscienct make it so we dont have freen will." and the answer i believe is that it doesnt. unless the omniscient being in question created the entire world to begin with. if you know everything about everything. that begs the question how can you create a world where you dont know the outcomes of every situation. and if you know the outcome of every situation, how can you create characters in this world that will be able to choose different outcomes. You created them with the knowledge of the outcome of every situation they will ever be in.

as far as determinism vs indeterminism. Im not too familiar with the arguments but i dont understand why it is relevant to this debate. I assume the differences are based on whether there is chance or not in determining the outcome of some event. Chance assumes that you dont have prior knowledge of the event in question before it happens. If you are omniscient and cause the event to happen. there is no question of chance or randomness, You KNEW what was going to happen when you set the event in motion. thats what it means to be an omniscient creator. questions of determinism or indeterminism would only seem to make sense to me in a thread not assuming an omniscient god. 

sort of on an unrelated note. if there is a god. maybe he just made an infinite amount of parallel universes to keep himself entertained by watching us make every possible choice in every possible situation.

[Nepycros]

sort of on an unrelated note. if there is a god. maybe he just made an infinite amount of parallel universes to keep himself entertained by watching us make every possible choice in every possible situation.

Quantum Theory. There's only the need for one universe, if your point has any validity at all.

[darkrobe]

sort of on an unrelated note. if there is a god. maybe he just made an infinite amount of parallel universes to keep himself entertained by watching us make every possible choice in every possible situation.

Quantum Theory. There's only the need for one universe, if your point has any validity at all.

it wasnt a point. it was a humorous interjection. but if you would like to go through the trouble of proving my joke false.... please elaborate on how quantum theory says there is only a need for one universe. i am unfamiliar with it. (being completely serious, it sounds interesting)

[Nepycros]

sort of on an unrelated note. if there is a god. maybe he just made an infinite amount of parallel universes to keep himself entertained by watching us make every possible choice in every possible situation.

Quantum Theory. There's only the need for one universe, if your point has any validity at all.

it wasnt a point. it was a humorous interjection. but if you would like to go through the trouble of proving my joke false.... please elaborate on how quantum theory says there is only a need for one universe. i am unfamiliar with it. (being completely serious, it sounds interesting)

I think the idea is that the universe has already gone through every possible history. Read about Feynman on google.

[Skotadi Phobos]

sort of on an unrelated note. if there is a god. maybe he just made an infinite amount of parallel universes to keep himself entertained by watching us make every possible choice in every possible situation.

Thats what I think happened.

[darkrobe]

sort of on an unrelated note. if there is a god. maybe he just made an infinite amount of parallel universes to keep himself entertained by watching us make every possible choice in every possible situation.

Thats what I think happened.

did you mean to quote me there? lol

[Skotadi Phobos]

sort of on an unrelated note. if there is a god. maybe he just made an infinite amount of parallel universes to keep himself entertained by watching us make every possible choice in every possible situation.

Thats what I think happened.

did you mean to quote me there? lol

yeah something  wrong. sorry

[destruct]

Ok, OldTrees, could you rephrase that second part please?

Hypothetical example
8:00 PM I arrive in the past
8:30 PM I tell Bob that I know you (maverixk) will make a thread titled "Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience)"
8:53 PM You make said thread
9:15 PM I notice said thread
9:30 PM I travel back in time

My knowledge of your choice did not invalidate your choice because my knowledge was dependent on you first making your choice before I would know it.

The only reason this doesn't work is because God exists outside of time.

[Nepycros]

Ok, OldTrees, could you rephrase that second part please?

Hypothetical example
8:00 PM I arrive in the past
8:30 PM I tell Bob that I know you (maverixk) will make a thread titled "Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience)"
8:53 PM You make said thread
9:15 PM I notice said thread
9:30 PM I travel back in time

My knowledge of your choice did not invalidate your choice because my knowledge was dependent on you first making your choice before I would know it.

The only reason this doesn't work is because God exists outside of time.

Nonsense, Vishnu isn't THAT distant from us worldly folk.

[destruct]

So how does he exist?

[OldTrees]

Ok, OldTrees, could you rephrase that second part please?

Hypothetical example
8:00 PM I arrive in the past
8:30 PM I tell Bob that I know you (maverixk) will make a thread titled "Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience)"
8:53 PM You make said thread
9:15 PM I notice said thread
9:30 PM I travel back in time

My knowledge of your choice did not invalidate your choice because my knowledge was dependent on you first making your choice before I would know it.

The only reason this doesn't work is because God exists outside of time.

Don't disagree with people you agree with. The post you quoted was a metaphor of the theist theory of "outside of time" but made to explain to atheists.