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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg356323#msg356323
« Reply #132 on: June 25, 2011, 03:31:01 am »
Ummm...those words define linear causes.  Using the language of logic, "for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given them, nothing else could happen" is written "X -> Y", or "if X then Y".  That's the definition of a linear cause.
It's the definition of a cause, which could include some kind of non-linear cause. Indeterminism is rejecting causes in favor of ??? (hence the term "indeterminism")
Wikipedia disagrees: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminism#Types_of_cause)
Quote from: Wikipedia
Necessary causes:

If x is a necessary cause of y; then the presence of y necessarily implies that x preceded it. The presence of x, however, does not imply that y will occur.

Sufficient causes:

If x is a sufficient cause of y, then the presence of x necessarily implies the presence of y. However, another cause z may alternatively cause y. Thus the presence of y does not imply the presence of x.

Another way is to consider not yet a single cause, isolated, but a complex course of cause. So we have linearity or non-linearity in the courses of causes: deterministic in the first case, indeterministic in the second one.
Are you telling me that if I believe that in order to turn on my car, I have to both turn the key and there has to be gas in the car, this is an example of non-linear causality and therefore indeterminism?! Because that's perfectly consistent with what my understanding of determinism has been up to this point.

Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg356324#msg356324
« Reply #133 on: June 25, 2011, 03:33:04 am »
If no one ever wrote about Luke Skywalker would he still exist (as a collection of principles)?
No. The principles themselves would still exist, but the specific arrangement of the that represents Luke Skywalker would not.

If he exists, then so do all of these characters. I challenge you to define what all of their characteristic traits are. The fact that no one has ever written about them should present no challenge if they exist even before someone has written about them.

Worwordar   
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Usken   
Echpoltor   
Dengha   
Mon   Irdyn
Ashon   
Onotin   
Ryn'ryna   
Endarddar   
Polangmorturves
A name is not a character.  That's why i said "as a collection of principles".  A character that i could claim does exist that no one has written about is one who is thoughtful, kind, tires easily and shies away from confrontation.  The list would need to go on and on in order to fully define the character and some aspects might never be fully delineated or even differ from person to person within our collective consciousness.

QuantumT

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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg356328#msg356328
« Reply #134 on: June 25, 2011, 04:04:27 am »
If no one ever wrote about Luke Skywalker would he still exist (as a collection of principles)?
No. The principles themselves would still exist, but the specific arrangement of the that represents Luke Skywalker would not.

If he exists, then so do all of these characters. I challenge you to define what all of their characteristic traits are. The fact that no one has ever written about them should present no challenge if they exist even before someone has written about them.

Worwordar   
Iruy   
Usken   
Echpoltor   
Dengha   
Mon   Irdyn
Ashon   
Onotin   
Ryn'ryna   
Endarddar   
Polangmorturves
A name is not a character.  That's why i said "as a collection of principles".  A character that i could claim does exist that no one has written about is one who is thoughtful, kind, tires easily and shies away from confrontation.  The list would need to go on and on in order to fully define the character and some aspects might never be fully delineated or even differ from person to person within our collective consciousness.
Let me see if I've got this. Your definition of a character just seems to be a collection of traits. Therefore any arbitrary set of traits I choose represents a character. If I then choose a different set of traits, that's a different character.

Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg356467#msg356467
« Reply #135 on: June 25, 2011, 01:59:44 pm »
If no one ever wrote about Luke Skywalker would he still exist (as a collection of principles)?
No. The principles themselves would still exist, but the specific arrangement of the that represents Luke Skywalker would not.

If he exists, then so do all of these characters. I challenge you to define what all of their characteristic traits are. The fact that no one has ever written about them should present no challenge if they exist even before someone has written about them.

Worwordar   
Iruy   
Usken   
Echpoltor   
Dengha   
Mon   Irdyn
Ashon   
Onotin   
Ryn'ryna   
Endarddar   
Polangmorturves
A name is not a character.  That's why i said "as a collection of principles".  A character that i could claim does exist that no one has written about is one who is thoughtful, kind, tires easily and shies away from confrontation.  The list would need to go on and on in order to fully define the character and some aspects might never be fully delineated or even differ from person to person within our collective consciousness.
Let me see if I've got this. Your definition of a character just seems to be a collection of traits. Therefore any arbitrary set of traits I choose represents a character. If I then choose a different set of traits, that's a different character.
I prefer to think that a character is a collection of the principles that are intrinsic to the character's method or decison-making process.  In other words, simply changing a character's hair color does not create a new character; rather it would be the same character with a different hair color.  But taking a character whose mother died in a car crash and so he tends to avoid driviing or riding in cars to a character whose father died in a car race and so he is a daredevil when he drives would be enough to call it a different character.

It is unlikely that any (finite) list of traits is enough to fully define a character.  This relates (in my mind) to what i mentioned earlier: "some aspects might never be fully delineated or even differ from person to person within our collective consciousness."

Offline Essence

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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg356632#msg356632
« Reply #136 on: June 25, 2011, 08:42:07 pm »
Ummm...those words define linear causes.  Using the language of logic, "for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given them, nothing else could happen" is written "X -> Y", or "if X then Y".  That's the definition of a linear cause.
It's the definition of a cause, which could include some kind of non-linear cause. Indeterminism is rejecting causes in favor of ??? (hence the term "indeterminism")
Wikipedia disagrees: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminism#Types_of_cause)
Quote from: Wikipedia
Necessary causes:

If x is a necessary cause of y; then the presence of y necessarily implies that x preceded it. The presence of x, however, does not imply that y will occur.

Sufficient causes:

If x is a sufficient cause of y, then the presence of x necessarily implies the presence of y. However, another cause z may alternatively cause y. Thus the presence of y does not imply the presence of x.

Another way is to consider not yet a single cause, isolated, but a complex course of cause. So we have linearity or non-linearity in the courses of causes: deterministic in the first case, indeterministic in the second one.
Are you telling me that if I believe that in order to turn on my car, I have to both turn the key and there has to be gas in the car, this is an example of non-linear causality and therefore indeterminism?! Because that's perfectly consistent with what my understanding of determinism has been up to this point.

No.  A non-linear cause means that the cause doesn't fit the logical definition of "If X then Y".  In logic, X can be any number of specific conditions -- for example, "My car is fully functional, it has gas, and I put the key in the lock and turn it."  That's still just 'X'.  If X, then my car will start.

Symbolic logic is traditionally structured in a straight line from left to right.  That's linear, and therefore deterministic.  It's also temporal in nature -- left is the past, right is the future.  Nonlinear logic necessarily includes some elements that also move from right to left, which makes it extratemporal and thus nondeterministic.  For example:

If I say "If I  go to the store or l go to the library, then I will not go to the theater", written (AvB)-->~C  (If A or B then not C), that's linear logic.

If I say "If I go to the store or I go to the library, then I will not have done either of those things", written     ->~ (AvB)-|
                                                                                                                                                                           |                |
                                                                                                                                                                            --------------
or (If A or B then neither A or B), that's a paradox under the terms of determinism, and yet it's completely viable under the terms of nonlinear logic.  More importantly, not only is it viable, but allowing for non-linear logic allows rational analysis of puzzles that completely fail under deterministic logic.  For example, you can't write a deterministic logical equation to solve the following puzzle:



But as you can see, Nonlinear logic does so nicely by using the outputs of one logical operator as the inputs of another logical operator -- something that deterministic logic cannot do.  Trying to write out that little set of logic gates above ends up in an infinitely long circle of deterministic logic because of the self-referential nature of the operators.


In other words, in order to have a nondeterministic cause, you cannot be operating inside of the ordinary everyday world of one-directional time.  Determinism is great for assuring you that your car will start when you turn the key -- but not so much when you're trying to determine the dual nature of light, measure the quantum behavior of quarks, or establishing patterns by which to determine ultimately chaotic behavior like the weather.


Also, that's another example for Kael of how indeterminism gets results.
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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg356705#msg356705
« Reply #137 on: June 25, 2011, 11:41:09 pm »
For example, you can't write a deterministic logical equation to solve the following puzzle:
This strikes me as doubtful.  I see that Allan Goff posts the same diagram in his paper and claims "However, instead of reasoning to it, NLL permits the answer to be computed". (http://www.scribd.com/doc/14567280/Nonlinear-Logic-NLL-Making-Sense-Out-of-Logical-Self-Reference (http://www.scribd.com/doc/14567280/Nonlinear-Logic-NLL-Making-Sense-Out-of-Logical-Self-Reference)) But i think the answer can be computed conventionally.

I'm not very familiar with deterministic logic, so please correct me if something i write here is outside of that scope.

B --> [B and (S or ~S)] --> (B and S) or (B and ~S) --> (S and M) or (~S and ~M) --> [S and ~(D and S)] or [~S and (D and S)] --> [S and (~D or ~S)] or [D and (S and ~S)] --> S and (~D or ~S) ---> (S and ~D) or (S and ~S) --> S and ~D

So the patient is sane and the doctor is insane.

In words, the argument would go:

The patient believes that either he or the doctor is insane (or both are).  If the patient is sane then the belief is true and the doctor is insane.  If the patient is insane then the belief is false and both are sane, which is a contradiction.

Its a strange way to state the problem, since M is pretty much a useless variable. 
M = ~D or ~S
, which eliminates half of the nodes already.  Four more nodes are eliminated by
B and S --> M

which leaves just the four nodes 0111, 0100, 1100, and 1001.

Only one of these corresponds to the belief being true.  (If the belief isn't true then any of the three possiblities aside from insane doctor/sane patient could hold.)

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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg356713#msg356713
« Reply #138 on: June 25, 2011, 11:58:24 pm »
Quote
B --> [B and (S or ~S)] --> (B and S) or (B and ~S) --> (S and M) or (~S and ~M) --> [S and ~(D and S)] or [~S and (D and S)] --> [S and (~D or ~S)] or [D and (S and ~S)] --> S and (~D or ~S) ---> (S and ~D) or (S and ~S) --> S and ~D
I'm sorry: which of those arrows are if-thens and which are transformations?
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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg356719#msg356719
« Reply #139 on: June 26, 2011, 12:15:44 am »
I understand propostional logic more or less, but i'm unfamiliar with much of the terminology.  I'm not sure what you mean by a transformation.  Basically what i used for my deductions were:

1. rules of logic
A --> (A and (B or ~B))                                          (a)
A or (B and ~B) --> A                                            (b)
~(A or B) --> ~A and ~B                                        (c)
A and (B or C) --> (A and B) or (A and C)               (d)
[(A and B) --> C] --> [(A and B) --> (A and C)]      (e)
[A and (B and C)] --> [(A and B) and C]                (f)
(A and B) --> (B and A)                                          (g)
(A and B) --> A                                                       (h)

2. rules of inference derived from the statement of the problem
M <--> ~(D or S)                                                   (a)
B and S -->M                                                         (b)

I will separate out each step:

B --> [B and (S or ~S)]                                              (1a)
--> (B and S) or (B and ~S)                                       (1d)                           
--> (S and M) or (~S and ~M)                                    (2b,1e)... i guess i skipped a step here
--> [S and ~(D and S)] or [~S and (D and S)]           (2a)
--> [S and (~D or ~S)] or [D and (S and ~S)]           (1f, 1g)
--> S and (~D or ~S)                                                (1h, 1b)
--> (S and ~D) or (S and ~S)                                   (1d)
--> S and ~D                                                             (1b)

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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg402533#msg402533
« Reply #140 on: October 02, 2011, 06:10:18 am »
     Ok, guys, let's assume for the sake of argument, at least on this thread, that there is a God and that God did the things described in the Bible. Or Torah. Take your pick. People say that God gave us Free Will, but they also say he's omniscient. If he really gave us Free Will then that means that he's not omniscient, correct? Because if he were omniscient then he would know exactly how things would turn out based on what he did or didn't do, right? Therefore he knows what we will do based on what he does and doesn't do. So if he gave us true free will then that means he's not omniscient, and vice versa. Am I right guys?

     I'm not trying to disprove God or prove his omniscience, I'm just pointing out something I recently realized.
Free will is based on your desires. you do what you want based on your own desires, so if god gave them those desires than they do have a free will since it is their desires even though it was given by god.

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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg402536#msg402536
« Reply #141 on: October 02, 2011, 06:13:23 am »
     Ok, guys, let's assume for the sake of argument, at least on this thread, that there is a God and that God did the things described in the Bible. Or Torah. Take your pick. People say that God gave us Free Will, but they also say he's omniscient. If he really gave us Free Will then that means that he's not omniscient, correct? Because if he were omniscient then he would know exactly how things would turn out based on what he did or didn't do, right? Therefore he knows what we will do based on what he does and doesn't do. So if he gave us true free will then that means he's not omniscient, and vice versa. Am I right guys?

     I'm not trying to disprove God or prove his omniscience, I'm just pointing out something I recently realized.
Free will is based on your desires. you do what you want based on your own desires, so if god gave them those desires than they do have a free will since it is their desires even though it was given by god.
Are you sure you are talking about Free Will and not Determinism?
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Wimbledofy

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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg402537#msg402537
« Reply #142 on: October 02, 2011, 06:17:02 am »
well, it depends on what you describe free will as. I read something about it in a book and it was about free will but it was along time ago. And wow i realized this says omniscience which is just knowing everything. How does god being omniscient make it so we don't have a free will.

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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg402540#msg402540
« Reply #143 on: October 02, 2011, 06:21:08 am »
One perspective:
Well, let's say you make a robot and give it the command: "If there's a fork in the path, make a left turn."
You know exactly what route it will go on, and you know that the route it will go on will make it exit the west exit of the maze.
Does that mean that you gave the robot the command: "Exit the maze through the west exit"? No, you gave it the command: "If there's a fork in the path, make a left turn."
In terms of God, Free Will, and Fate: God gave us the ability to make a choice. He knows what choices we will make, and he knows what kind of fate our choices will lead us to, but he has still given us the ability to make a choice, not forced us to reach our destination.

Another perspective:
Maybe God didn't give us true free will, but something that is effectively free will, as in we can make choices, as a moral agent, through our own reasoning without the interference of another being, notably a higher power that is God. In this definition of free will, we most certainly do have it.

 

blarg: