Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience)

[Chromatophore]

Assuming God exists (which he does) and is omnipotent (which he is), then he can create a being that has free will.

God can do anything, even if it seems paradoxal. He can make an object too heavy for him to lift, and then lift it.

Once you throw logic out the window, any further debate becomes completely pointless. Have a nice day.

How is this illogical.  God can lift 50 lbs.  He makes a rock that ways 65 lbs.  He makes himself able to lift 80 lbs.  Contradiction averted.

Unless you mean why is God doing heavy lifting when he could have other people doing it for him.

[BluePriest]

Assuming God exists (which he does) and is omnipotent (which he is), then he can create a being that has free will.

God can do anything, even if it seems paradoxal. He can make an object too heavy for him to lift, and then lift it.

Once you throw logic out the window, any further debate becomes completely pointless. Have a nice day.

How is this illogical.  God can lift 50 lbs.  He makes a rock that ways 65 lbs.  He makes himself able to lift 80 lbs.  Contradiction averted.

Unless you mean why is God doing heavy lifting when he could have other people doing it for him.

exactly. And even removing the quote, the first part is just logic. If he is omnipotent, he can. Now if you want to argue omnipotency, thats one thing, but trying to argue an omnipotent being cant do something, now THAT is illogical to me.

[QuantumT]

Omnipotence is illogical. I thought that was obvious to anyone old enough to sign up for the forums.

Also, I thought the reason you quoted ratcharmer was to say that god isn't subject to logic.

[Chromatophore]

How can you be so sure?

Because I can make the character do whatever i want, regardless of anything. whether that anything is how i feel the character would think, or how i personally would like to see the story play out.

But if you've already defined the character by a set of principles then you are constrained to only allow the character to act in accordance with those principles.  In the same way God can create a human agent whose principles govern that certain outcomes are prohibited but still allow enough room for free will.

The character is not just the sum of his actions, words and what happens to him.  He is defined by his principles, his well i dont really know another word for it, his character....

[BluePriest]

Omnipotence is illogical.

Because you dont understand it. So it is illogical to you. I often read bloodshadows posts and say it is illogical, but then I have to remember that I also dont understand everything he is talking about, and so I usually stop short of butting into the conversation.
Explain omnipotences logical fallacy.

[QuantumT]

How can you be so sure?

Because I can make the character do whatever i want, regardless of anything. whether that anything is how i feel the character would think, or how i personally would like to see the story play out.

But if you've already defined the character by a set of principles then you are constrained to only allow the character to act in accordance with those principles.  In the same way God can create a human agent whose principles govern that certain outcomes are prohibited but still allow enough room for free will.

The character is not just the sum of his actions, words and what happens to him.  He is defined by his principles, his well i dont really know another word for it, his character....

The character does whatever the writer decides. If that happens to be something that doesn't fit their character, that just makes it a crappy book. They still do it though.

I'll illustrate this with an example. Let's pretend I'm the author of the next Superman comic book.

A thief sneaks up and snatches a lady's purse. Superman hears her calling out for help and rushes in. He chases the thief and punches the thief repeatedly until he dies. Superman then takes the goes back to the lady with the purse. However, instead of giving it to her, he melts it with his heat vision, laughing manically. Superman then proceeds to rape the woman. Once he's finished, he chucks her off a building. After she slams into the ground, he has sex with her corpse. Then Superman goes and has rapes the corpse of the thief just for good measure.

There. I don't think I could have deviated much more from Superman's character, but he was completely subject to my every whim.

Omnipotence is illogical.

Because you dont understand it. So it is illogical to you. I often read bloodshadows posts and say it is illogical, but then I have to remember that I also dont understand everything he is talking about, and so I usually stop short of butting into the conversation.
Explain omnipotences logical fallacy.

The paradox of god creating a rock so heavy he can't lift it. There is no logical way to conclude this.

[Chromatophore]

There. I don't think I could have deviated much more from Superman's character, but he was completely subject to my every whim.

All you've done is show that there can exist an omniscient God that can create a character with no free will.  There still could exist a writer who can create a character who is not bound by his author's every whim.

[QuantumT]

There. I don't think I could have deviated much more from Superman's character, but he was completely subject to my every whim.

All you've done is show that there can exist an omniscient God that can create a character with no free will.  There still could exist a writer who can create a character who is not bound by his author's every whim.

I can do this for absolutely any character you choose. It is literally impossible for you to make a character I can't do this to.

[BluePriest]

God can lift 50 lbs.  He makes a rock that ways 65 lbs.  He makes himself able to lift 80 lbs.  Contradiction averted.

Unless you mean why is God doing heavy lifting when he could have other people doing it for him.

Why does it seem like I am having to repeat the same thing due to you choosing to hold onto a certain part of a post, and ignoring the rest.

IT is irrelevant to compare God to a comic book author. It is not

*God writes every single detail that is going to happen*

instead it is

*God writes the beginning, lets us do a few things, makes a few middle things, allows us to do some more things, and then God finishes up the story*

We are also like a robot in a way, but also unlike the examples that were given earlier. We are not just a string of commands, instead we are more of a string of if statements, and although certain past actions may dictate the range of what the rng must fall on for certain events, they do not decide the command.

Ex
instead of

Code: [Select]

if(x happens)
{do y};It is more like

Code: [Select]

if(x happens)
{if(previous outcome A==true)
Range.a +1% }
else
{if(previous outcome B==true)
Range.b +1% }
ect ect
{if(previous outcome2 A==true)
Range.a +1% }
else
{if(previous outcome2 B==true)
Range.b +1% }
ect ect

Math.Random
God allows randomness.

[Chromatophore]

There. I don't think I could have deviated much more from Superman's character, but he was completely subject to my every whim.

All you've done is show that there can exist an omniscient God that can create a character with no free will.  There still could exist a writer who can create a character who is not bound by his author's every whim.

I can do this for absolutely any character you choose. It is literally impossible for you to make a character I can't do this to.

The question isn't whether you can do it to any character i choose.  Its whether anyone everyone would be willing to.  (In the analogy, you are one omniscient God who would deprive people of free will, but there may still be another omniscient God who could create people possessing free will).

[Pineapple]

What if I write a biography? Saying the person didn't have free will in the first place to prove the person doesn't have free will would be circular, btw.

[QuantumT]

There. I don't think I could have deviated much more from Superman's character, but he was completely subject to my every whim.

All you've done is show that there can exist an omniscient God that can create a character with no free will.  There still could exist a writer who can create a character who is not bound by his author's every whim.

I can do this for absolutely any character you choose. It is literally impossible for you to make a character I can't do this to.

The question isn't whether you can do it to any character i choose.  Its whether anyone would be willing to.

Seeing as I'm included in everyone, I suppose that makes it a yes. I'd also guess that most people would do the same, sufficiently motivated.

God can lift 50 lbs.  He makes a rock that ways 65 lbs.  He makes himself able to lift 80 lbs.  Contradiction averted.

Unless you mean why is God doing heavy lifting when he could have other people doing it for him.

Why does it seem like I am having to repeat the same thing due to you choosing to hold onto a certain part of a post, and ignoring the rest.

*snip*

Note- The author bit is for Chrom, who is arguing that a character in a book has free will. If you find that idea absurd, then we can agree and move on.

If god lifts the rock that he made, then he failed to make a rock so heavy that he couldn't lift it. QED

What if I write a biography? Saying the person didn't have free will in the first place to prove the person doesn't have free will would be circular, btw.

I'm not sure who that's directed at, but if it's me, as the author I'm still free to make the character in the book do whatever I want as I write it. If it doesn't line up accurately with the person's life I've written a crappy biography, but I can still do it.